Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Relay. I'm Gabriel Stewarts founder and CEO of Lexameca, the leading attorney referral network. Our show is dedicated to forward thinking leaders in the legal industry who are passionate about leveraging technology and AI to enhance their practices. Today we're thrilled to have Makee Love, president of CJ Advertising, one of the all time greats in law firm advertising. Makee, it's great to have you on the show. Really excited to talk with you today. Our topic is is TV dead or dying? We're going to talk about that. You of all the people that I know have deep knowledge in this part of the industry. Thanks for joining us.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Gabriel. It's so fun to be here and to talk about this subject, especially this question you're posing because I get this quite often with very differing opinions from across the country as I travel from conference to conference, as I'm sure you hear a lot as well. So thanks again for having me. I'm excited to be here. 30 years we've been doing TV advertising at CJ. 30 years this month.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: So just real. So let's see, 30 years ago, that's 1994. I'm not trying to date anyone, but I was not that old back then. We barely had the Internet. People used newspapers, we're advertising in the yellow Pages. The world has changed dramatically. Facebook didn't exist. I mean, I don't even think Mark Zuckerberg was born yet in 1994. The dude is not that old. So this is awesome. We're really almost a generation away from that starting point when that was the medium for getting your message out en masse. And now you have digital, you have social, you have all of these new ways of messaging, a lot of shiny objects. I'm hearing lawyers all the time complaining about, well, my cost of acquisition is going up and I'm being attacked by law firms or advertising on social media. What's happening with TikTok? Is Snapchat going to replace my ad budget? This is such an impact. Interesting topic because I have my opinions. I mean, until later. I'm really excited to hear what you're thinking.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think TV has did yet. Right. Like every day we're trying to monitor, manage it and see where it's going. But still to today, TV is king. You know, one thing at CJ is that we're very data driven. So we want to know what happens when you pull one lever and you push another lever. And so we track all those things to the nth degree. And the fascinating thing today is that every market reacts differently. You know, 30 years ago, we could turn TV on in any market, run almost the same platform of media buying, whether that was yellow pages or TV or the newspaper clippings, whatever, and we would get an immediate result. Right. Today, that is not the case. Every market deserves its own analysis so that we can be effective in that particular market. But what we're learning, quite frankly, is that TV is still king. Digital is driven by brand still to today, for the most part. And we are seeing that if we pull TV down, our leads and signups and our volume of digital leads goes down. If we push TV up, we get a slight bump in those things as well. We can't afford to be off TV for an extended period of time without seeing a drastic drop in lead volumes. You know, back several years ago, maybe 20 years ago, you could come off a TV for six weeks and go back on and pick up pretty quick. Today, what we're seeing is if firms need to ebb and flow their budget, if they come off TV for even two weeks, it takes eight to 10 weeks to get back to where we were before that hiatus from tv. So definitely still king. I think it's shifting in where dollars need to be spent. So a long time ago, we were primarily daytime driven and focused. Today we have to incorporate a lot more news programming as well as a lot of live sports, which we wouldn't have done in the past to get the brand across so that we can continue to drive digital. Right?
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: TV is so fractionalized now, and you can go stream any show that you want, so you don't have to wait on daytime TV to be entertained by talk shows or reality tv. You can get that anytime you want. What you can't get anytime you want. You can, but it's not as relevant is the news and live sports and so that we're finding a lot more spaces there for some branding opportunities for our clients.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, man, I have so many, like, immediate questions. I'm jotting them down. As you're going through, there's a lot of different ways to talk about this. What are you seeing as like a. Is there a typical mix between your TV and your digital? Is there kind of like a tried and true formula, or does it vary by market and by law?
[00:04:39] Speaker B: Very different by market. You know, what happens in Arkansas is very different than Austin, Texas. What works in Austin, Texas, is very different than what works in Houston, Texas, even, you know, so every market has to be analyzed as to which levers are going to pull. We kind of look at, you know, different demographic makeups for the markets to give us a starting point for those places. Because you're going to find, you know, higher educated, younger demographics are going to tend more toward the digital and streaming aspects, whereas, you know, middle to lower income with less education, they're going to tend to still get a lot of daytime tv. There's still street, so they're not missing out on that, but they're not at the same volume or they're not as reliant upon that as the other markets are. So it takes, we have to take a lot of demographics into account now, whereas before we didn't have to look at such a wide base of demographics to get there.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Are you finding that when you're looking at that, then that's interesting that it varies by market. Are you finding that the.
There's a different cost of acquisition? Like, are you able to say, hey, for this demo, like, let's say millennials, their split is probably in between tv, live TV and other types of streaming. Gen Z is likely going to be more geared on the streaming side versus older. Have you been able to attribute cost of acquisition? Because one of the things I'm just so interested in is is it possible to keep your cost of acquisition low when you're going more into all digital streaming? Because I know the CPMs are a lot higher because you can get much more specific attribution. My understanding for personal injury, though, is that it's not about doing a really specific demo breakdown. It's about getting the frequency high, getting the brand recognition high, so that if you get in a wreck, you have a lawyer at the top of your mind and that's who you're going to call, which is just not the way that digital is split up now. So you're basically competing for, you're doing, trying to do a high volume of impressions for the lowest possible dollar, which works really well on tv. But then when you're competing against some DTC brand that's niching down on this really specific demo and you're bidding against that, it seems like it's going to be harder to acquire at the same cost.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah, cost per acquisition has gone up just about across the board, regardless of the market, but definitely in the markets where we have to play in the streaming realm more, because like you said, the CPMs are so high for that, it's almost cost prohibitive to do it at a frequency that really works for the personal injury world. Because. Right. We want everybody who's been injured is our client. Regardless of your status or your demographic, like we welcome all of that into our fold for our clients clients. But you know, it's very, very hard still to get that reach and frequency that we like to see at a good cost per case. If we're having to do traditional TV streaming, tv, digital placement, social media, all the various social medias. Right. And not only that, you're now competing against legion companies who are bidding up your name or bidding against you for the same keywords who are not regulated by the bar associations. Right. So lawyers are regulated in what we can and can't say. So we're not going to be misleading or take CL down a wrong path. Whereas some lead gen companies, they don't have those same restrictions, so they can run ads that are much more appealing to a specific demographic and bring those cases in where we're trying to fight messaging and demographic purchasing at the same time. So it's become a very costly adventure. But if you're a great firm doing great things with your operations, it's still a very profitable way to get your cases. And so with the right mix, the right analysis of those markets, you can still bring those cases in at a really good cost per case.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: So the blended approach is still working. Are you seeing what's the strategy just to kind of look into the future? What's the strategy that's working best for the youngest demographic of drivers, people who are potentially in accidents, like your 18 to 21 year olds. How are you reaching them? What are you seeing for cost of acquisition, if you can speak to that?
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't have specific cost per acquisition on those because the client, our clients retain a lot of the personal data about those clients. So I can't speak to that specifically. What I can speak to is the fact that we are experimenting with all the different social media platforms to see which ones are going to resonate most with our demographic in that age range. Luckily for us, and I think it still holds true going into the future, is starting to work with that demographic at a very young age. So most of our clients, we got into the elementary schools when they were young with safety messaging, we got into the high schools with driving courses or arrival live type campaigns. So the name has already been emboldened with that age demographic in the markets that we're in. So they know us, which helps when they go to the Internet and they now see 15 names they've never heard of before and one really, really well branded firm that they can then click on. And rely on because it, you know, recall. They have that recall there.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: So yeah, that's really smart. I'm reminded of a story I was on a flight back from Arizona a few months ago and asked the attendant because that's learner country for those of you who don't know. Have you heard of Lerner Row? And she just immediately broke into the jingle. She's like 20 years old. She grew up listening to it. Top of mind, like you said that brand recognition is incredible like that. That's a long term brand play. And so I think one of the questions is as TV may be fading out a little bit or at least it's undeniable that people are now watching less live television. They have other platforms where they' they're consuming media. If you're looking to break into the market, it's not the same where you could go and get on three channels and you would have true market saturation. What are you seeing for firms that are starting to build their brands from scratch and aren't the incumbents? What do you recommend?
[00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah, man, I wish we could go back to three channels. Those were the days. That is not where we're at for new brands. It's so difficult these days. So you know, there's a wide mix of new brands that are starting out. There's the ones that have award chest of money where they can kind of play in some of the realms such as radio, tv, billboards to start getting their budgets up there and getting their name recognition built for others. They don't yet have that budget. So we have to make a very different approach which may be lead gen. Whether we create the lead gen or we use a lead gen company to help start building their war chest of funds while we're also trying to build their brand through email marketing, GBP recognition, some videos that we can send out, a lot of different aspects that we're trying to do. Radio and billboards would definitely be in that mix though for a new firm starting up and hopefully we can afford some TV because we'd like to get them on TV because it still has. While the brand building power is still with TV firms should be doing it going to come a point where it's going to be so fragmented and so expensive they're not going to be able to get there.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: That's. That's incredibly helpful. Is there, are you, is there a minimum stand in TV before it starts to make sense? And I'm sure this varies by market general recommend. So it sounds like, well, strategically I'm A small firm, I may not have a lot of money yet. May need to build my engine on top of doing lead gen pay per lead services until my cash flow is high enough that my sin can then be converted into traditional and digital. Is that a fair take on what you're recommending?
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Every market is different though. So there are some markets that we can still break into at a good cost per case for a young brand. Right. Someone who doesn't have a ton of brands recognition. But for the most part that's where we like to start at if we're building a very new brand from scratch. As far as the cost per market, it does vary across the country. Right. If you tried to go into Miami, Florida, it's going to be so much more expensive than if you, if you try to go into some smaller cities around the country. So yes, taking and making sure that we are getting the right amount of money on tv, the right amount of money into different places really, really depends on if or not that is oversaturated. If they are, we don't want to be in spot number one, two or three. We can still build a really healthy brand starting out in that 5, 6, 7 spot. You can get there by talking to your ad agency, whatever ad agency you're trying to utilize, looking at the competitive analysis for that market and then really trying to start out in that 5, 6, 7 spot and working your way up from there as you build your brand.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: So minimum spend as you're getting started, small loft. When we're talking about getting in doing lead gen and then moving into brand based advertising.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Yes. You know, it's very different across markets. What you would need to spend to get on TV or to really start to do that branded marketing. You know we have a formula that we like to utilize here at CJ based upon demographics and population and things of that nature. What I would tell firms is don't be afraid if you start talking to an agency and they show you the competitive spend analysis for your market and you see a bunch of spenders in that 1, 2, 3 spot. You know we've been very, very successful at building brands starting in that 5, 6, 7 place mark and then moving them up to be the number one brand in that market. You got to start somewhere, start where you're at, let your agency depend on your agency to do the work that you hire them to do, to find the very best path forward for you and then believe in them and follow their advice. You know, marketing is a long term thing. When you're building brands, some people still believe you can jump in and out. That is not how you build a brand. Coca Cola didn't start and stop and start and stop. They've been significantly steady their entire time they've marketed. And that's the same thing with our brands. Even at a lower budget, you've got to be consistent. You know, you used to could see, years ago we could see a lift in brand after about six weeks, and now it takes about 18 weeks before we start to see that lift in brand. So that means you've got to have a war chest of money that's going to hold your firm steady for spin for at least 12 months. And really before you start to see that money kick in and start doing a lot of great things for you. From a branding standpoint, Yeah, I mean.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: That'S very, very different than it used to be. And I think what's just so different about plaintiffs is, is that it is brand based, where you can go out. And even in my business, I'm looking at lead acquisition and its value proposition, buyer intent. You get a lead. That's just not how it works. We're looking for life events. And so you have to have the brand trust over time when the events occur. So it's, it's very, very different. I'll ask you, as we get close to the end, the controversial question, influencers, what are you doing with them? Are they the future? Is it a flash in the pan? Is it just not a fit with the kind of work that we're doing? I've seen some large firms. We've got Sweet James on Whistlin Diesel's channel. You've got Morgan and Morgan on some live sports and some other YouTube. What are influencers doing in our space? And is that something that y'all are working with yet?
[00:15:53] Speaker B: I think they do play a vital role in brand building. Right. Because that's what they're good at. They have a brand, they built their brand. And now if you can join their brands and propel your brand even further, that's a win. If you're a local marketer not looking to take cases nationally. Some of the things you want to be watching for when you look at the brand, brand influencer is how many followers do they have that are truly local to you? Right. Because a lot of these influencers can have huge followings, but, you know, 100,000 of them could be overseas and only 10,000 of them in your market. So you got to know your brand that you're selecting, be able to get your demographic information from that influencer so that you know you're choosing the right ones. But I think, you know, looking like you're everywhere all the time is the end goal, right? Because that's still your reach and frequency. So how do we do that at a cost effective measure so that we can still be top of mind to your point, when that life event happens? Right. That's the ultimate goal. I want to be top of mind. I need my telephone number to be easily rememberable and I also need my website to be memorable because if those things are in place and I am top of mind, they know what I do when I do it and how to get in touch with me, then I'm hopefully going to be their first call when that life event happens. And so it's more about being in the right place, the right time and looking as though you're everywhere when those things happen.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: So do you have any success stories from influencer campaigns that you've run with your firms? Too early to tell.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Where so at cj, we've been running a campaign for a few years now with Paul Senior for motorcycles. So Paul Senior is from the reality TV show OCC Choppers. And so, you know, there's a huge following for him in the motorcycle demographic which we were trying to tap into. And we, we have several success stories where people have seen our law firms that are associated with Paul Tuttle and have either loved him or hated him, but still hired the firm because they knew that if this influencer said this law firm knows motorcycle accidents, he's the per. They're the people we need to go to when we've had a motorcycle accident. Some really big value cases have come to these firms because of the association with pulsing. There's way many more stories that you could go into. But from that perspective, it's a really good thing to start working with your influencers and building that brand, both social and tv. If you're on there already, and my.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Understanding of that campaign is just from my actual billboards I've seen, is that his name image was associated with law firms all over the country, not necessarily one law firm that brought him on and ran him as an influencer just for them. Is that, is that correct?
[00:18:30] Speaker B: So Paul Tuttle works with CJ Advertising. And if you are interested in Paul Tuttle and you work with CJ or you can work with CJ to build that campaign out, we have the assets, we own the assets to occ, so we're able to help him promote his own personal brand. While also helping our law firms build and grow their motorcycle client base as well. But yes, he does work for that.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: Makes a lot of sense because mismatch is the influencers, like you said, international. Given the platforms, there's nobody who's like an Arkansas influencer and all of their followers are in Arkansas. That's just not how it works. And so you've essentially done aggregation to say we can or we can split this influencer out across all of these different markets, share the cost, deliver the value where the alignment is geographically. So that actually makes a lot of sense because so few firms are national that it really makes sense. Quick plug for lexameca if you do your influencer campaign, you can refer out all of those cases that aren't in your geography to create the ROI there. But either way, that's one of the issues dealing with influencers is that the geography isn't going to be as tied in as your local TV spin or your social where you can do geographically targeted advertising. So thanks for your take on that. Mickey, thanks for joining me on the podcast. Love your expertise. Would love to talk more about the data analytics. This is such a big topic across the industry. Hearing so many conversations. I think TV will be around for another 30 years. It may just be something that lives on and on and on, but I think tv, radio, Billboard, they're here to stay. People are going to continue to engage and the cost really lines up with what we're doing here. So thanks for being on the show and hope to see you again soon.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Thank you.
