Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Relay, the legal show for personal injury law firm owners, presented by Lexamica, the number one attorney referral network. I'm your host, Gabriel Stertz. Joining me today is Matt McClellan, founder of ONA, a client tracking app for legal customers. Matt is an expert on the changing expectations of today's hyper online consumers and how that affects your legal business. I've known Matt for a couple of years. He and his co founding team are excellent and are building an absolutely amazing company, not just from a technical, but just culturally. And the way they think about the industry is, is awesome. So I'm really excited to have Matt on the show today. Matt, thanks for joining me.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Gabriel. Like you said, it's been a couple of years and we've been in the slog together, but it's real fun building technology around this changing world of legal.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, one of the things that I love about the legal space, and you and I are both primarily in plaintiff side legal, which has its own flavor to it as compared to corporate, transactional, even like family and kind of other smaller practices. I know you're more in that we're pretty much entirely in contingency, but I love it. It's very focused on productivity, scalability. These are business owners who are building really amazing businesses and are willing to try and adopt new technology. I think there is a general perception that it has been true that legal has been very far behind other sectors in terms of technology adoption, although I think that has been changing a little bit since COVID But it's a great place to build and I think that there's a lot of really interesting problems to solve. I mean, I'd love to just before we dive into like product and what we're talking about today, which is the how lawyers need to meet the changing expectations of consumer. Like, what's your own journey been? How did you get into legal tech?
[00:01:48] Speaker B: I started my career just business management. I wanted to learn how to run businesses. So my foray in business started in office cleaning and building maintenance. I ran a company for a couple of years. Some in 2019 sold that business and I landed working for a case management software company. I thought it would be an amazing challenge to get to learn how law firms operate, make them efficient, make them more money. At the end of the day, like you said kind of a little bit ago, they're very interesting businesses where somebody is a practitioner of a very, very finely tuned skillset, but they're also a business owner, an operator that Needs to run a profitable business that can keep scaling. So that my foray into legal tech was in case management. And then I've been working on HONA for coming up on four years. Yeah.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: So look, you're in the business of client experience, of making sure that clients hear from their lawyers, understand what's going on on their case. Two things that I think are like really notable about that. One is that most bar complaints come because people don't hear from their lawyers. Right. Which seems like a really easy problem to solve. But given that that's a fact, means that lawyers aren't communicating well with their clients. And then two, there's massively changing expectations around how consumers engage with businesses. Like especially Covid accelerating. But people working, buying through Amazon, like, my wife doesn't get groceries anymore in person. At risk of sounding out of touch, you know, it's, well, it's Walmart delivery. So you know, it's not anything crazy. But like that's an entirely mediated experience through an app. You've got Amazon, Netflix, all of these like apps things on our phone computer. We expect a super seamless experience. In a lot of ways, law has been stuck in like the 1920s where the only way to talk to your lawyer is on the phone. And then there's maybe emails that they, that you're going back and forth. So what have you seen in terms of kind of the client expectations, like in terms of how they want to engage with lawyers? Are they okay getting emails and phone calls every now and then? Or are consumers really like dissatisfied with the status quo?
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So here, here's kind of how I frame it is actually a step back when Google was building their business suite for Gmail, Google Calendar and all these things. The product team, and I've met this product owner before, which he told me kind of this background is the product team said when people show up to work and they drive from their house to their, you know, nine to five, they don't show up and take off their consumer hat and put on their business hat. They want technology that feels like what they use most of their life. Right. And so that was kind of their, their thesis on building out Google. They wanted it to feel more like a consumer app and they built it that way as opposed to. And maybe this is the wrong crowd because I know a lot of law firms are on Microsoft and that whole suite, but at the end of the day that, that was Google's big insight and that's a massive business for Google now.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: But in fairness, I mean, Microsoft has Just gone and run after Google and they're kind of like Microsoft business now feels like Google. So totally agree that that's like proven to be a very valid hypothesis.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: And what, what a thesis, what a hypothesis that's turned out to be true. The same thing is true with lawyers and their clients. Their clients don't want to interact with their, their, the law firm that they've hired in a completely different way than they interact with every business. And so you made some really amazing call outs to Amazon and to the Domino's pizza tracker and to so on and so forth. This is how consumers are used to dealing with their businesses. There was a time in Amazon's history where you could call in and ask where your package is. That was legitimately a time in Amazon history.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Are you serious?
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yes. Early days. Because they just hadn't built the technology around it yet. Right. And until the Internet was more mature, package tracking, identification codes, the Internet being able to tell you where it's at, that, that wasn't a thing. But it was, it was the need and the change in the consumer expectations and also obviously an operational efficiency thing where it doesn't make sense to have a, you know, people on the phone all day telling you people where their packages were. And so that same thing is true. Law firms and the clients that hire law firms, they're expecting a more familiar feel. They're expecting the interactions with the law firm business to be like other businesses they interact with. And the truth is other businesses have changed how they interact with clients a lot in the last 20 years. And law firms are still trying to keep up with that. And it's not, it's out of necessity because that's what their clients expect. And so the bar has just been lifted and it's because of the change in the consumer behavior and how businesses communicate.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And when you say consumers expect that, tell. Tell what? What does that look like to the extent that you've seen that? Is that consumer saying like, hey, like I don't enjoy getting in touch with you by email or is it that they aren't hiring lawyers that don't have better communication methods? What, what is that? How is that changing expectation manifested?
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So here's, here's something pretty staggering. And I'm sure it's changed over time. I don't have like different pinpoints in history of email response rates, but professional service, and this was out of, this came from a study done by mailchimp, who probably sends more emails through their platform than anyone else. Professional service emails are opened at a 22% rate. That means your clients are opening your emails that are helping progress a case or helping with the process and gathering more information. They're only opening those. Just call it 25% of the time and be generous and you know, hope that they're opening their law firm, law firms emails a little bit more than they're opening other emails from maybe some other professional service providers. And so that hit rate alone, like if only 25% of your emails are being answered, that's why law firms are following up by phone.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Well, to be clear, that's opened. I'm sure the answer rate is in the single digits.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Probably true. Yeah. And so that alone is just a staggering stats. Like if you're emailing your clients, you are, things are not going super well for you if that's your only means of communication. Now a lot of people have invested in texting. A lot of case management systems have texting built out of their system. That's great. Those, those open rates are the, the Internet says 98%. I open 100% of my texts. So I don't know how that, how that 98 gets to brought but still a much, much higher open rate. And because of that like the law firms have changed and you know, email is just kind of dead. I wouldn't say it's dead. There's still use for it, but like for consumer facing businesses, email's not what it used to be and the open rates just aren't good. And you're not gonna get good client engagement nor good client experience because if they're only going to their email once a week and looking through your business isn't gonna operate too well.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: And then to ask you positively, what kind of engagement stats do you see with client portals? I mean text messages, everyone opens that, that's easy. But like do you see high engagement rates with clients? Because if they're visiting client portals, clicking links like that's a really strong sign of consumer desire aligning with the product.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, taking a step back, Gabriel, like in your day to day, how often do you get a text from a business that has a link in it?
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Oh, not very often really.
[00:08:24] Speaker B: Like think about, I guess I have my, like Amazon, Amazon text me when my package is 10 steps from my door and then there's a link in there. I often click the link. Sometimes I don't need to. When my pizza is getting baked, they actually send me a text. I got my tires changed a week ago. And maybe you just haven't noticed it.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: Okay, so I think Salt Lake City, like people know how to do those things. In Arkansas, they don't. So we just, okay, let's chalk it.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Up to Arkansas in the curve. But, but here, here's what, what, what it is, is it's pretty common to have links in your text messages from businesses that are pulling you into a different means to actually do the communication. And so if the texts get open at a 98% rate and there's, there's links in it, it's, it's becoming really, really common where clients are going to click those links. For instance, you know Hona, the business I work on is the primary means of delivering messaging is SMS because it has such a high adoption rate. And we're seeing about a 90% rate of people actually clicking to the link and then going and engaging with the law firm through Hona.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: And so that's super high. Like to have a 90% click through on a link when your open rate on email will be a quarter and you're probably again single digits. Click through links for email is going to be pretty demanded.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: That's a marketer's dream where you can get 98% deliverability and 90% click through rate.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's huge.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And so we've just found and like done so much data. Like we're, we have 300,000 plaintiffs any given month on our platform. And so we have some really cool data of like what, what engages them, why they stick around the things that they want throughout their legal case. And so we're very, can you share.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: Some, some nuggets I'd love to know like what, what are those things?
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Something that shocked me recently built into our application. A big piece of Hohna is a big piece of client experience is educating. Right. If you're just sending them a simple update, if we're talking personal injury, it's like, hey, you're now in the demand phase of your case. Like that's great. I think Gabriel, you and I understand what that means. But the average consumer hiring a personal injury firm has no idea what that means. And so naturally they're going to have five follow up questions. Well, what does that mean? What's next? How long is it going to take? All those come naturally. So a big piece of our application is actually the educational aspect of like answering those follow up questions with what the generic update is. And so within our app we have a frequently asked questions section. Just over 50% of clients that end up in our application click through the frequently Asked question section. At least one of the questions, which, which I was shocked. I actually thought it'd be lower. And you kind of have to see it to understand this. But like, up front in our app, when you, what you first see is usually video content or a general description of what happens in a certain phase of the case. And then you scroll down a little bit and that's where the FAQs come in. But over 50% are reading through those FAQs.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: I mean, that's a really strong indicator that the clients want more information. And not just like you said, in the form of an update, but generally, what do things mean in relation to their case and to the legal process they're going through? I mean, it's interesting because, I mean, to look at it another way. Like, people want to understand what's going on. They don't just want to be thrown technical language. And then they're like, okay, I'm not going to figure out what that means. That's really interesting. So clients want updates, Obviously, we've already said that they do want context and education. So not just giving them, here's a word that's in legalese, but they actually want, like an explanation for that. So those are two, two big takeaways for, like, you know, where consumer expectations and desire are. What are other things that you're, you've learned or you're seeing in terms of behaviors that consumers would like to be able to participate in?
[00:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah, this won't come to a shock to many, but video content is kind of king right now. Right? Like, you walk around, you go in a public place where you're waiting for flight or something. Everyone's scrolling through TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. Like, that's where so many consumers spend a majority of their day. And so what we found is we allow law firms to embed videos into our application of maybe the attorney educating or videos about settlements that they've recently had, things like that. And we found that firms that utilize video content, their clients stay in our application just over two times as long as clients that don't use video.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: That's huge. That's. That, that's a massive delta. That's. That is, I mean, again, it's not surprising. But also how many law firms are using video? And if you're listening to this, you know, I'd love to know, like, because when we were running the employment law law firm at Stanford, we would do automated videos, but then we would even do individual videos out to potential clients because the engagement was incredible. Getting a video or even like a semi customized, like hey, here's the phase of the case you're in. Video people, man, people love that stuff.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. And they're going to do that before reading your FAQs and descriptions. Those are there as a resource. Like I'll read through all those. Like as a consumer I. Video content's great, I watch it, but I like to learn more and read more. But the general person is going to click on video content and they're going to get educated through that very easily because it's natural. Once again, it's, it's what they're used to. And so meeting consumers where they want to be met, that's I think what the, the next couple of years of law firms, the ones that are really going to shine are going to be the ones that give that client experience that is akin to what consumers are expecting.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: I mean in scaled video. First of all, it's so easy to shoot some videos and put it into an app or your website or wherever you're delivering it. But with AI, you can, I mean, I'd love to know if this is something you guys are looking at, but you can create custom videos that are personalized to every single new client, every single client period, that you don't even have to touch anymore because you can load your face in, create digital avatar of yourself and then you can just type in the words you want yourself to be saying personalized one to one. Video communication at scale without time today, let alone, you know, not. So the, the table stakes are absolutely using video. Like if you're not using video, you're completely behind because everyone's watching it and consuming it and they want it. There are ways to exceed table stakes. But you, if you're not doing it, that I think you're definitely behind.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Well, I think the issue, Gabriel, is people are super excited to make video content. They know they need to make it. But a lot of firms don't understand how to actually disseminate it to their clients. Like maybe some of them send it out via email marketing. Maybe some of them like are doing TV ads like they just don't realize or put it on their YouTube channel. But for the most part, like those types of videos, like you just got to understand how your clients want to see them. And so that's where we've leaned really heavily into putting video content into, into our application is it's like a natural means to disseminate those videos. While like if you're just like organically hoping people show up on your YouTube channel, you're probably going to be pretty dissatisfied. Unless you got great content, you're going to be dissatisfied with how many views it's getting. And I think a lot of people get dissatisfied and they try it for a couple months and realize, oh, this isn't working. But you gotta, like you said, if you build automations or manually have your team send out videos to update clients, like those are really good ways to get those videos out.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: No, it's all about distribution. Like you need to push videos at your clients, they're not going to come watch your. Here's who we are as a law firm. We've been around for 50 years and here's some footage of us sitting around a conference table. Like that also is not valuable. Like they want education. I think something, I mean, I think a lot of people still even get hung up on the production phase. Like, oh, it's got to be this quality, it's got to be this level. Like people consuming video today, they're used to vertical video, they're used to it being shot on an iPhone. In fact a lot of the videos that what we found was when we were doing it in the law firm, like the less produced the video, the better engagement we got because it feels more personal, it feels more intimate and that's. It feels more familiar too. Which is like, oh, like this guy literally just sat down and sent me a video that means more than highly produced, like wearing a suit and tie on a green screen. Nobody wants to watch those videos and I'm sorry if that's what your whole video library is but like that's not the stuff that I sit on YouTube and watch or TikTok scroll. Like we want video that feels intimate and one to one.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: True. Yeah. And selfie videos are just the norm. Like go on, go on TikTok. 90% of the videos are going to be like selfie videos that are phone, iPhone shot or Android phone shot. And you don't need that. The client expectation, weirdly you would think would expect higher quality video or higher quality content. But that expectation's actually almost gone. Not in a different way, but it's just user created content. Right. The simple stuff that's like feels more day to day and feels like something I could, you and I could go make all this content right now.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: I think our general like BS meters are very sensitive these days and when something is too produced we immediately assume that it's just corporate, it's blah and it doesn't mean anything to me. But if I See something vertical, I'm immediately going to be more interested in it. Like so it's. No, that's really interesting. I did not expect the conversation to immediately take a turn to video, but 2x engagement, that's huge. Like you gotta find a way to do, to do video to get that out to your clients. What, what other things are you seeing?
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Like there's all these companies that are just like incorporating video in some way into the websites. People will stay on your website longer, meaning they're probably gonna find your web chat or contact us form or now that they've been on your website for a while, they, they trust your brand. Cause they saw the attorney talking settlement they had and then they're going to give you a call and that's, you know, you're just that much closer to landing business because there's, there's that personal touch that they feel. Even if even though you made that for the masses, they still feel that personal touch or feel connected to the, the attorney in some way.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Well, and one of the, one of the early companies that I think engaged video really well in legal space was Intaker. They have the, instead of the just a little chat bubble, they have the little vertical, super important vertical video in the corner and it's moving, it's on a little loop. And usually those videos are shot like kind of in the office for the attorney because they're probably shooting on their webcam. But that's powerful. Like I, Intaker has done a great job with that at the discovery phase, top of funnel and then you guys are doing that inside of the client experience. But it all lines up. What else are you seeing? What else is out there right now that you see as like a trend that someone should be thinking about and making sure that they're implementing in their law firm?
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a, if we're still talking on the client experience side of things. Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a big push towards client engagement. And engaging is a big buzzword right now alongside like client journey. We have to think about our client journeys. I think it's super, super important that your client understands the process. And so this goes back to the education. Like it's great. You did an intake call, you told them it might take, you know, the average case with us take 6 to 12 months or whatever that looks like you've given expectations but they need like a visual of like here's what happens. And throughout the different steps of the case. That's one of the big problems we've tackled. Through our application. But at the end of the day, they just need to understand that there are steps to this. It takes a while. There are variables that the law firm can't control, like the opposing counsel, and then there are variables that the client can't control. But there are also variables that the client can control. And so understanding who's in charge of what throughout this case and setting expectations clearly and painting out that client journey and what it's going to look like over the next six to 12 months, that is something the best law firms are doing and something that their consumers are really resonating.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. And I think it's important you don't just talk about that journey on day one. You need to talk about it a lot. When we were doing wage practice, one of the things we would do that on day one, and then two days later, the client would have just completely forgotten everything that we said. And for us it was a large, like, okay, I got a lawyer, finally took my employment case. That's amazing, right? Like, I got an attorney. That means I have a million dollar case. And we had to tell them, you know, our average case value was, you know, like five in the mid four figures. You know, some like lost wages is not typically a high dollar claim, but if you've never had an attorney before, they think they got a million dollars. So we would have to reinforce over and over and over every step of the way. This is a journey. And here are the expectations. Because you just have to like, help people understand, like time, expectations, value. I'm sure for personal injury, your clients too, like, you're just helping them understand. Like you may or may not get a huge check, but you're, you know that here's what that looks like, right? I'm sure that's part of that.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Yep. And you and I like once again, tying back the general person hiring a law firm. And every lawyer knows this. You guys know this. The average person hiring your firm probably has never been through a case like the one they're hiring you for. And if they have, they've probably forgotten about how it all works and have different expectations once again. But this is like a life changing event for a lot of these people that are coming through the door. It's scary to talk to an attorney. They haven't hired an attorney ever for anything in most cases. And so like kind of wearing the shoes of those consumers and like, as somebody that wasn't formally trained in legal, that now is very much so in the legal world, like I Have a lot of empathy for those people that are coming through the door. And I know a lot of attorneys do as well and law firm staff. But like the education they want that they're yearning for the education and to understand. Now there's, that's a two sided kind of situation because if you give them too much it might contribute, confuse them. So you need to keep it vague and educate them in a way that feels akin and kind. And that's where I think it's important to give them a resource where they can self serve the education as opposed to like give them a resource that's protected and gives them the information you want them to know without going overboard. That that's I think a huge aspect to it as well.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Yeah, Abs, absolutely. No, that's huge. Last thing and I'll, I'll recap at the very end with some actionable takeaways here. But last question I wanted to throw at you. You guys are very focused on client experience, client journey, post conversion. So post retainer. Yeah, I don't see law firms using the fully mobile full like app based experience or any companies really doing the discovery process. How do I choose an attorney through this experience? The way that I go to Amazon to find whatever good or service I'm looking for. I use phones, I use kayak to you know, book plane tickets. Do you think there's an opportunity or something like that? Because it feels like we've made progress inside of law firms to deliver that like fully native mobile experience. But do you think there's opportunity to move that one step up the funnel and help consumers discover law firms through that type of experience that they're used to having for on their Amazon account?
[00:22:10] Speaker B: I definitely think so. I may charge people money because I'm so curious, but I like to click on ads on Facebook and I get a lot of personal injury ads. And it seems like that's what what the marketing is going towards is. It's not very clearly a law firm that's marketing to you. It's these like businesses that say, you know, we have a technology to help you understand the value of your case. Click here to fill out our form. And it's not like law firm to consumer marketing. It's like business that helps get you in the door and helps. Yeah. And so there's a lot of that going on. I wouldn't say it's super sophisticated maybe in the way you're thinking about it. It's very simple, it's a form. But like their marketing messaging is no longer like, have you been in an accident? It's, hey, that accident you've been in in the past six months is probably worth way more than you think it is. And that seems to be kind of the marketing trend. And it's not a law firm's logo sit.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: A lot of them are super sketchy and you should click on them as much as you can just to charge them money so they'll go away because a lot of them are violating ethical rules for marketing. But to your point, I think it is indicative that there's a consumer desire to move away from this like law firm centric advertising model because they are getting engagement. When people think, what do I want to know first? I want to know what my claim's worth. I want to know what it looks like to get a good attorney. So it's one of those things that I just see as a missing piece of the marketplace currently, which is more client centric ways to find a law firm. I think y'all are doing a great job post conversion and saying, this is a client centric way of engaging with the law firm I've hired. I think that the market is generally missing a lot of the client centric ways to find the law firm in the first place. Or even to your point, like with law firm landing pages, like so many of them, it's the lawyers on the front page, it's all about them. It's not saying, here's videos of the clients, here's FAQs that have enough information that you can start to understand what's going on. Like a lot of the stuff that you're talking about that law firms do internally should also be turned around and you should put that on the front page of your website so that consumers are getting more and more educated. They do not want to be told, I'm Jimmy, I'm the best lawyer of all time. They want to be given information, they want to see testimonials, they want all the content. So whatever you're doing, if you're a HONA customer, take all that honor content and put it on your website so consumers can see that as well. I think there's, that's just reusing the same content.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: The law firms that are putting clients first, which, which is honestly most well, because at the end of the day they're serving people and they're, they're providing necessary professional services for them. There is a big aspect to just putting the client first and focusing a lot of what you do towards the client. Now if you've got 10 staff to every one client. Obviously that might not make sense in certain practice areas, but it's about utilizing tech and building operational efficiencies where you can put the client first, give them the experience they want, but also alleviate some of the administrative burden of your staff through automations and through the right technology. So I think it's kind of a two sided thing that like you need to, you need to optimize for efficiencies while still delivering a really good client experience.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: I just don't see those as in conflict with each other. Like the way to deliver the most consistent positive experience is through process built on technology with great content. And that's something that is scalable. And yes, like you want the white glove human touch for the times when that's absolutely necessary. But also if you're using your team to answer questions that have been asked before, well that's a waste of everyone's time. You're not creating additional experiential or, or enterprise value with that. And even before there are options like hona, we were building out with Zapier and Twilio and Salesforce in our law firm to deliver those scaled experiences. And anytime a question would come, you throw it into the knowledge base. The tooling is crazy. Now you've got Hona, you've got these, you know, these AIs that can do stuff and I know you guys are starting to do more with that as well. But it's all scalable and it's, that is a consistent way to deliver consistent experience to your consumers. So they work together.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah, you're totally right. And we're a two sided mission because we have two clients to serve. We want to make sure that the law firm's client is having a great experience. But we also want to improve the operational efficiencies of around client communication for the law firm. So in a lot of ways we spent a ton of time thinking about both the law firm communications and the client's experience. I would say if you can build your technology stack to where your worst client experience is still above your competitors, you're in a very good spot. And that's what it takes is you can optimize your tech stack where your worst client experience is still above your competitor's best experience or median experience. That's you know, one of the reasons we've leaned into to the way we built honas. At bare minimum, that worst client experience is still going to be a really good experience that feels natural to that client that's interacting with your law firm.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: Absolutely. But in the larger scheme of things, again, you're not talking initial conversion. So it's a little bit different. But generally, lawyers aren't just competing against lawyers, they're also competing against other service offerings. The expectation that a client has for the service they get from a law firm is not, is it better than the law firm I didn't hire, but is it comparable to the other services and products in my life? If you're going to get a five star review, you're not getting that review because you are better than the other law firm down the road that uses a typewriter. You're getting that because your experience matches to Netflix, Amazon, Domino's. Everybody that's around, they're saying, my lawyer was as good as those. I'm going to give them a great review. You have to look beyond just legal to talk about like, what is the consumer benchmarking off of? It's everything else in there.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And then you also got to think where you're competing the most with other law firms around you is from intake to a retained client. That's where you're competing. Because if they reached out to three law firms, you got to prove to them that, hey, we're the one you want to go with because of this, this and this. And then if you, if you don't have a consistent client experience, they might drop off or be like, oh, I chose the wrong firm. Get buyer's remorse that they chose your firm over another one. Yeah, I think you're spot on with that. They're not comparing you to your competitors and for the most part they're comparing you to other businesses they've interacted with.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: Yeah, but if you want to just purely say, what's the economic argument really delivering that backend client experience. So post conversion, I mean, one, you want to keep the client. But the biggest thing, the best law firms I know are driving massive value off of client referrals. Client has a great experience with the law firm, they tell everyone they know this is the law firm to use. That's the, that's the best a, you're not spending a single dollar on that. Right. So there's no referral fee on that. There's no marketing costs associated with it. And all you're doing is delivering a quality experience to the client that runs through the journey with you. Really good law firms understand that at a deep level. And then poor law firms don't know what they're missing because they just don't get referrals. And so it's you're not seeing like a negative dollar amount on your scorecard, your P and L. But if you have that, you start to understand how insanely valuable that is. And good law firms get a crazy number of referrals. So to delivering that back end client experience, you may not even know what you're missing. But if you aren't getting a lot of referrals, that's because your client journey sucks and you need to fix that.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: And this is your more your world than mine. But I've heard some really cool client stories of firms that have been using Hohna and their referral partners. The people sending them new cases have more confidence that it'll be taken care of when they send it to them and get higher settlements and so on and so forth. And in your world, you're more likely to get referrals if you're giving clients a good experience from also partners in other law firms or other businesses. Right, you're right. It's hard to like pin a monetary value to it. But the long term best business practice is to give a good client experience in a way where you're obviously still going to make a lot of, a lot of money and profits. But give that good baseline client experience where your partners and referral partners and clients are going to keep sending you more business.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, look, it's going to other verticals. Like, why does everyone like Amazon? Well, because it's insanely easy. The experience is incredibly consistent and it's highly transparent. That's post conversion. Like I'm already on the Amazon app, now I'm using it. I'm a consumer insider that I'm a client of Amazon's. I'm going to come back to it. I'm going to tell everybody else because they got it to me fast. I knew exactly what was going on. It was super easy to use. That's also true of law firms. I don't think firms necessarily think of themselves that way. A lot of them have this mindset of one client, one case, one check. And I think that's a big mistake that a lot of firms make is not realizing that it's one client equals everyone that person's ever going to talk to afterward who might possibly have a legal issue and all of those checks. Right. And so from an economic perspective, it starts to make a ton of sense to do that. And generally the key to success is being incredibly consistent. And like you said, like your, your baseline, like your worst client experience needs to be good. And then your best client experience is going to be amazing because some people get the million dollar checks, but what about the people that they get a small check? They, they should still feel great because it was a, it was a seamless experience. So man, I all of this is really good. We've gone pretty long on this episode, but it's, it's really interesting stuff. I'd love to talk more about it. One of the big takeaways that I'm coming away with is video. Lean into that literally X engagement from video content over non video content. Customers are reading the FAQs. They want the additional content so that they can self educate. And then obviously having scaled consistent client journeys, however you execute on that is a huge driver for client referrals, attorney referrals, additional revenue and less bar complaints because your, your clients are hearing from you.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not going to call it bar complaint insurance, but definitely some bar complaint mitigation. Because once again, if you're, if your worst client experience is still getting a couple texts a month, automatically, you're still giving them communication and you're still in the loop with them.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: That's pretty cheap. We'll call it litigation mitigation.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: That's not bad. I'm going to trademark that.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Matt, I really appreciate having you on today. Thank you so much for your time. And I highly recommend if you do not yet have, or even if you do have some client experience systems built out, look at Hona. It's a fantastic platform. It's not just going to save you time and money, it's going to make you money as well. Matt, Manny, Josh, the whole team over at Hona, great guys, could not recommend them more highly. Matt, thanks so much for being on the show today.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Thank you, Gabriel. It's great to be here. Always love talking about this stuff.
