Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to the Relay, the legal show for personal injury law firm owners, presented by Lexamica, the number one attorney referral network. I'm your host, Gabriel Stiritz. Joining me today is Ken Levinson, founding partner at Levinson Stefani injury lawyers and one of Chicago's top personal injury attorneys. Ken's recovered millions for his clients in truck and auto cases and literally wrote the book on litigating major automobile injury cases. But what's really impressive to me about Ken and I have personally benefited from this, and we'll get into this, is that he's built his practice through authentic relationships. Ken is one of the most authentic people I know, one of the people that you just want to spend more time with. And so today we're diving into the power of showing up and how the most successful attorneys and business leaders, period, are mastering the lost art of in person relationship building. And for those of you who are intimidated by that, Ken has some really awesome strategies for how he does this for his practice. And at the end, you may even get an invite to weekend Levins and dinner. And if you get an invite, you should always say yes. So just going to dive in here. The goal is to deliver value to you, a personal injury law firm owner who's looking to scale your business and build a better organization. So, Ken, glad to have you on the show today. Really excited that you could join me.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Well, Gabriel, first of all, thank you for having me. I sure appreciate it. I'm one of your biggest fans and just honored to be one of your guests. Thank you.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. So look, you have, I have been to a Ken Levinson dinner and I think one of the cool things about it is that it's a key part of your actual business practice is to host these intimate dinners for people. And you invited me as a guy who has had a role in a law firm before, worked on a tech company, but I mean, frankly, like not a direct line to your business. And I thought it was really amazing that your goal is to create real engagement and real relationships between people. I think it's undervalued and it has massive upside for you and for the people who get invited to these things. So I just want to dive in on it. Like, why do you do these and how did they start and what. I guess before all of that, what's the format? What is a Ken Levinson dinner?
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Great question. I love dinners. I love to eat.
I love food. But really it's not about the food. It's about breaking bread with friends.
Friends to be and Getting to know and build a relationship with fellow trial lawyers, potential referring sources lawyers, non lawyers. But it's. It's really about building a trust based, honest relationship where I can bring value and help my friends. Like you. And the format, it's. It's flexible. I never exclude people. If people want to join, great. And I think it started with conferences where there's oftentimes a big banquet sal dinner, a hundred lawyers, which is fine, great. However, I just much prefer 6, 8 of us, 10 of us maybe getting together at a roundtable where we can tell stories and empathize and get to know our friends and fellow child lawyers and the travails, what they're going through with their cases, their firms, and how to help them grow their practices, and how I can be of service to others. And sometimes it's just connecting fellow lawyers with each other when I step back. And I love when my friends could refer each other cases or recommend an expert witness or really help their clients and help their firms together.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Like, I think that so many people would say, I mean, some people get it already, right? Like you. You do go to the networking, but you go to the conference. I think one of the things that stood out to me is like, you genuinely seem to not just care about your success, but the success of the people that come to these dinners. So how do you curate a dinner? How do you decide who's coming? How do you make sure that, like, the people that are at the table feel welcome and comfortable and, and like there's a spot for them?
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Well, like we said, I don't want to exclude anyone. I think when you and I first met, we were having a little dinner. Please come along. I want to learn more about you, what you're doing, what, what motivates you and how I can be of help to you. And to me, the format is a little smaller, a little more intimate, where you can get to know each other. It's not two minutes. Going from one cocktail hour to at the buffet table and meeting and trying to meet 50 lawyers.
That was one of the mistakes I made as a young lawyer. Trying to market my practice is two things. One, I try to meet a lot of lawyers in a bar association event, right? We've all been there, Gabriel, where you want to get 30, 40 business cards. I've learned that's not the best tactic or the best. It doesn't work for me. I'd rather have a smaller dinner and really get to know people and dig deeper than a wide network of people I've met. Once for eight seconds.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. How do you think about it from a, a business angle? I mean, it's expensive to have these dinners. It's a nice place, you know, you don't necessarily know if it's going to pay out. How do you, how do you think about it? I mean, especially if you're like a smaller law firm owner and maybe you're, you know, well, man, I don't know if I have the budget for it. How do you, how do you say, well, this is worth it because I mean, you and I both know these things pay for themselves a hundred times over. But like, as you're getting in, like, what's the right mindset to have about one of these?
[00:05:13] Speaker B: That's a great question. Presumably if you're a law firm owner, partner, associate, you have a budget. So you have amount of funds available to build your practice in market, make the dinners or lunches or even going for coffee, make that part of your budget. Some people spend money on billboards, TV ads, Google paid search, Google organic radio. There's so many ways YouTube, so many ways lawyers attract business in what we do.
If it works for you, building that relationship with referring lawyers and other partners, maybe that's part of your budget for the meal and it could be an expensive meal, doesn't have to be.
Or, you know, maybe you say TV's better for me.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, obviously those are serving different audiences and a lot of your practice is driven by lawyer to lawyer referrals. You, you consult on trials, you do trials. So you know that that's a, a great investment of your time. I think one of the things that I had to learn and I, I think I fortunately, and I was talking about my wife with this, learned the lesson very early on in my career, like early 20s, that if you want to impress someone who's busy and talented and they have a lot of money, which trial lawyers are, there's this understanding, like you make a lot of money doing this, that at a certain point, like once you have enough money, the thing that you can never have more of is what? Once you have infinite money, what do you still not have? An infinite amount of time and health. Thank you. Time. That's right. That's, that's the answer. So people who are busy and powerful and have money, they value time. And when you make time for someone or you, you go out of your way to do something special, I think that sends a message that just can't be replicated in any other way. Like a trial lawyer is not going to call you, Ken, and hire you for a trial because you put up a billboard. No matter how many billboards you put up, that's just not going to be what they do because they're not looking at billboards to find their. They want that FaceTime with someone else. And I was talking to a lawyer yesterday, is 300 people working for you.
He, his business is absolutely huge. And he, you know, to this day he still says FaceTime gets deals done. And so I think that that is an understanding that shared by people who have many resources, Time does not become less valuable. In fact, it becomes more valuable. Cause there's more draws on your time. And so carving that out and making it worth someone's time to show up somewhere is a way to attract highly talented, highly successful people. And knowing how to curate an event that brings those people into a room together, I think is a really undervalued sk.
And you have to do know how to do that the right way. And one of the things that I think is also true is the adage that if you ask for money, you're going to get advice. And if you ask for advice, you're going to get money. Which basically means like, don't go to. I can't go up to you, Ken, and say, hey, buy my thing first. Like, I need to understand you and who you are. And bringing people to a dinner and adding value, like you said, like you want to add value. Like, if your first thought is, how do I bring value to other people?
They're gonna start seeing that in reverse and wanting to bring value to you. And I've seen like, everyone that knows you and your dinners and the way you treat people says, how can I help Ken? Like, everyone wants to help Ken Levinson. And you, you earned that right by thinking about other people first. And I think that's a huge thing that a lot of people really undervalue.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Right. I think it's a mentality of, of being patient, strategic, caring, empathetic, and having good people skills and being a good listener. A lot of times people are in a quote unquote business setting meal, and it's all about them and what you can do for them.
And my. And that might work for certain lawyers, certain people, but my philosophy, my framework is the opposite.
I want to get to know someone, I want to listen. If I'm doing very little talking and I'm getting to know fellow lawyers, fellow contacts, that to me is a win. And one, and then two, picking up little things I can do to help them. I remember having a meal with Brian Lebovic, a great lawyer from Florida, and I realized he had told me he had a certain practice area I didn't know he had. Great. I found out because I listened. And then he's the go to lawyer for certain type of cases and you can't do that remotely as easily or with an email blast or a quick phone call. Sometimes there's an evolution at a meal or a conference where you're getting to know people, but to me, being a great listener and picking up on ways you can be of service to others is a great skill to have.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Now I, I think that's incredibly important. And you learn things about people and about the industry because you're just taking that time to go deep on something that you just wouldn't know any other way. Because like you said, it's like you wouldn't, Brian wouldn't tell you that if you just set up a zoom meeting and said, how are we gonna do business together? And that and that and that. Like there's things you pick up on that are incredibly valuable. So I'll put you on the spot and ask out of these dinners, these kind of like open ended things. What are some, what's, what's one of the coolest things that's come out of one of those where you didn't anticipate it, maybe it took a while to come to fruition, but what, what are some positive results that you've seen from hosting these?
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Oh, wow. It's just, there's so many. It just, it's the people, clearly. I've had some dinners where years later, you look back and we met at this great dinner and now we're friends, our families know each other, we go out of town together, we see each other at conferences and by the way, we refer each other cases and help clients and do some good work and make a living together. And that's magic.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: I think one of the things that's just top of mind for everyone right now is this fear. Technology's taking over, we're marketing, costs are going up, big money's coming into my, my town. And those strategies all work at absolutely massive scales. And I think one of the things that's cool about this is it isn't scalable. You can't just take $10 million and then scale that out to intimate dinners with other human beings. So it is a defensible strategy.
It's cool. Like you're saying these have resulted in referrals and other cases coming in. I mean, if you look at it from a purely business perspective. I mean, that's a lot cheaper than doing a massive TV marketing campaign. If you're running like a smaller account shop, 10 to 50 people, you don't need so very many cases. You have to run a massive branded acquisition campaign. Do you think the ROI is good on these?
[00:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it can be. For us it's been successful.
We're, we get most of our cases from other lawyers, mostly lawyer referred work. Whether it's out of state, personal injury lawyers or lawyers in town bringing us into cases in co counsel. Absolutely. It's been worth it for us. And then there's all these other benefits you get. Well, building relationship, I mean that's what life's about, right? There's all these studies, there's this, the Harvard study where you look at people that are in their life, what do they value most? It's the relationships, right. It's not material things and it's experiences and relationships with people you care about. So to me, getting to know people and their story and what motivates them and what works for them. There's so many tangential benefits.
Like you might find that a lawyer, you know, has a great morning routine and read a great book that you can use and be helpful. It can be helpful to you or has a case with an expert witness that made the case and you're, oh God, I have a similar case. Send me the resume to the expert. Or it could be a vacation spot or maybe the name of a great restaurant in Salt Lake City.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: I need one in Napa Valley because that's where we're meeting next. So hopefully you've had enough dinners to get that locked in. I think one of the things that you're, you're saying here, and it's so, I think it's true about life generally, but especially at something like this, which is approaching it with like a real sense of curiosity. And there's a, like you're saying there's, there's myriad benefits to spending time with intelligent, well resourced, well connected people.
But you have to enter that with an openness to. I don't exactly know what the positive outcome is going to be, but if I go in and I listen and I want to learn and I want to just understand these people and genuinely connect like it really is one of the highest value things you can possibly do. I mean, the way that I look at going to a conference is I can have one great conversation. Not sales necessarily, just a good conversation, like that's worth it. And there's conferences where I'll walk in and I'll have that in the first 30 seconds. Actually, it happened to me at a recent conference. And then there's some where it's like it just drags on and on. And day three and a half and everyone's walking out with their suitcases, you finally have that conversation. But I think, because that's such a powerful thing, that one true connection, like distilling it down to a small, intimate dinner, you're almost guaranteed that. And if you're listening and looking for it, that great conversation, that new learning, that connection that you didn't have before, it's. It's almost impossible to miss on that. And that ROI is fantastic.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. You, you, you. You hit on one of my favorite words, curiosity. And I read a book recently by David Brooks. Have you heard of this book called how to Know a Person?
[00:14:23] Speaker A: No. Tell me about it.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: So you might know of David Brooks. He's a political commentator, a little bit conservative. I think he's a conservative political commentator. I've read a few of his books. I think he's very smart guy, very talented. He wrote a book on how to get to know people, and he calls certain people diminishers. And that's people who make you feel unseen and small and not really listening. And illuminators. And those are the people. I try to be an illuminator. They're curious about other people. They want to learn. They don't try to top them with their better story. Like, we've all seen that. All have been in a conversation where you mention something and another person might say, oh, yeah, and what they'll say, you climb that mountain. I climbed the mountain bigger, and there was a mountain lion behind me. And you're like, oh, that was interesting. I was telling a story and it was interesting to me, but they didn't really care. They just wanted to top it. But being curious and not trying to diminish people goes a long way in building relationships, and that's who you want to spend time with. I do have one rule of thumb with.
I call sort of my relationship building lunches and dinners. I don't have lunch with people I don't respect and like. I mean, I generally like most people, but it's about the relationship and getting to know someone. And if someone's a diminisher and negative and has unsavory qualities, I'd rather spend time with illuminators, people who are positive and getting to know each other and curious and want to Help others. So it's important who you spend time with. Like you said, time is a limited resource.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: It's the one thing that we can't have any more of. And so I think making that valuable, curated effort is really important. So the name of the book was how to. How to get to Know People.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: How to Know a Person.
David Brooks highly recommend it. It's a good book. It gives. And he, I think, would say that he was a little bit of an introvert, maybe prickly, not the best at relationships. Over time he's learned how to, he studied it, wrote a book on it, and he's much better. And I think he gave some really good concrete advice on how to build relationships and get to know people. And boy, for us as trial lawyers, to get to know our clients and our client's story and their family and as law firm partners and owners, to get to know our team and referring lawyers and the whole. It's all about people, right? It can't help but improve your life and improve your practice by getting to know people better.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: I couldn't agree more. I think all of life fundamentally boils down to relationships. As a leader, if you, you, you have to understand people. You have to, you may be selfish, you may be a nasty person, listening to this podcast, you at least have to put an effort to try. There's very few people who are successful enough to be able to just jettison all of the social mores and social skills. Most of us live in a band where that stuff matters still. And practicing those habits and getting to know people has tremendous business value. But I would make an argument that it has far more value than that for other reasons. But even from a purely business perspective, you need to understand that. So. And I like your, I appreciate your, your, your comment about introverts because I was going to ask that too. Like, I don't know if you consider yourself an introvert or extrovert. I am highly extroverted. It's very natural for me to just talk to people for ages and ages, but I think a lot of very talented, very high capacity leaders are more introverted, more thoughtful.
Would you consider yourself introverted? Extroverted. Somewhere in between.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: What do you think?
[00:17:54] Speaker A: I think you're an extrovert.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I am.
I, I genuinely, in the way I look at being an introvert versus extrovert is.
Does it energize me to be around people? And it does, it does.
I do get enthusiastic and curious and a little bit of a high around people.
And as I get older I really appreciate thoughtful, caring, good people and I want to learn more about their story and how they become successful. I want to get to know about their families and their friends and thoughtful folks who've given really a lot of time to contemplating issues that we all, either as humans deal with every day, or maybe in our law practice, we deal with a lot of the same struggles in our practices and clients and insurance corporate defense lawyers who aren't always the best to deal with.
That to me is, is, is gold.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I would say to the introverts out there, Ken and I are not. We're not that. So we can't necessarily speak to it. I think it's. You don't have to have a million friends to be highly successful in a business context.
I really think that the further along I get, it's important to have a T shaped set of relationships where you have a few very deep relationships. The people that are really important to you, your leaders, the key people outside of your business, mentors, coaches, people that you like, respect and trust. Like you're talking about Ken, that's not a hundred people. You just don't. No one has time for that many. And then the broader one, the T, yes, that may be a little bit further down. It may be a little broader, but there's a larger group of people. But frankly, that's not the kind of. You don't need a hundred friends that are kind of in the middle. I think you need keep your network broad, have a presence, and then also focus on the depth of the few relationships that matter. And I think the good news for introverts is you don't have to be constantly spending time with a million people. But I think you can focus on even just these dinners. Invite people you already know. It doesn't have to be a bunch of strangers every time. Keep it small. But that FaceTime, that habit of FaceTime with a few people that matter is really important.
We're coming up on time. Ken, I really appreciate you doing this.
Just to recap a couple of things that are, I think are really big takeaways. One, the David Brooks book recommendation, how to know a Person. Obviously, go read that. Um, Ken's a huge reader. He has a book review list and, and recommends books every month. You can get that by email and then invite yourself to dinner with Ken. He's an awesome host. He always picks great restaurants. If someone wants to invite themselves to a Ken Levinson dinner, how would they go about doing that?
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Oh, I'm open.
Shoot me an email. I'm pretty good checking my emails and responding. Kennethany.com Shoot me an email if we're at a conference together. I'm an active AAJ member. Other organizations if we're going to a conference together, get on my email blast so you know where we're going. If you're speaking somewhere or going to a conference, let's meet up and grab a bite to eat and share some stories and get to know each other.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: When I guarantee you'll come away with a lot more than you put in. And Ken usually foots the bill, so that's a double win. Ken, thanks so much for being on the show and for talking about this with me. I really enjoyed it.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Well, thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
