Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Relay, the legal show for personal injury law firm owners, presented by Lexamica, the number one attorney referral network. I'm your host, Gabriel Steeritz. If you've been wondering what private equity rolling into plaintiff law actually looks like, not the rumors at conferences, but the real deal structure, because I'll tell you, there's a lot of chatter. Today's episode is the real nuts and bolts about the industry and what's going on. My guest today is Chad Dudley. Not the first time you've been on the relay with me. Partner at Dudley DeBoer Injury lawyers in Louisiana. Chad and his partners just announced a deal with uplift investors to form Orion Legal mso.
This is the first big announcement that we've had in the space. It's making waves, and no one better to make waves than Chad. There's so much respect for the way that you've built your firm, your coach to many other lawyers who really value your perspective. And today I'm really interested to dive in with you about the way that you structured this. Chad, you're a frameworks guy. I've been to so many conferences where you've given your framework for case valuation or for pods and structuring, and so you have a mind for this. And I'm really excited to dive in and think through with you the framework that you brought to your MSO structure. Great to have you back on the show.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Thank you for having me back. It's been, it's been a little bit, but it's good to be here. And yeah, it's been an exciting, crazy, I guess, 90 to 120 days. Ish.
I think we, we. We closed our deal on January 22, and I hit send on the press send button on the press release and it feels like everything's changed in the last 90 days. It's been a whirlwind, not just for us, but other firms that were looking at this. And it's been a very, very exciting time. You know, a little bit of what led up to it was that, you know, I've been consulting with law firms for probably almost close to two decades now. And when ever you know, go work with firms and apply systems and processes that worked and see them be able to get better results from their clients, get more favorable feedback from the clients, whether it's now it's Google reviews, back then it was just positive mentions and testimonials and et cetera. But you see that happening, like, okay, this is, this is pretty cool because I just, I love doing it. Because I look at, you know, when working with other firms as an extension of the core values that we believe in. At Deadly Debosure, you know, we have our core values saying, okay, take care of our team, take care of our clients, do great work, give back, have fun. Those things that are what we are about. And when you take these to another firm and you see it, have success, it's like you're helping plaintiffs just through, through a different channel, so to speak. And that's what we're about, helping people. And we've been doing that for a bunch of years. And we saw firms grow and we had this opportunity to say, hey, what if we can do this at scale? What if we can be the back office for a bunch of firms? What if we can provide that kind of support even on a grander scale? And along around that time, private equity was coming onto the scene and saying, hey, look, we, we'd like to support firms that are doing things like that.
And so we, we searched for a bunch of partners. We probably went through 30, 40 possible partners. We met the guys at Uplift who are just awesome. They believed in the vision that we had at the. We're very supportive of it and also ready to move. It's a new emerging dynamic market, and they, they cut through a lot of the red tape and move quick and just get stuff done.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Right, so you said, sorry, let me, let me just jump in here. Because you had 30 or 40 partners. Yeah, that's a, that's a robust process.
How did you, did you lead it? Did you bring in a banker to lead it? Was that inbound, Outbound? How did that work?
[00:03:35] Speaker B: We brought in a broker to help us with it. And we basically were, were, you know, working with a broker and an advisor. We brought them in and they helped us vet and narrow down the possible candidates. And, you know, we got down to about three. We spent a lot of time with those three. And it was just really connecting with. Again, you know, you're entering a partnership, you gotta share the core values, the vision, get along and just enjoy being around em. Right? And so we spent time, the guys at Uplift and just connected and like, all right, this is, this is our team. Let's, let's go, let's roll.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: And how dialed in did you have your, your framework prior to even the 30 or 40, but by the time you got to three or four final candidates, like, how similar were the, the deal structures that you had on the table? Was it roughly looking at the same deal with three different potential partners? Or were the frameworks themselves different?
[00:04:28] Speaker B: You know, there, there's variations because we had a vision for, you know, for, for our industry. And again, I mean, through consulting, working with hundreds of firms, through owning an advertising agency, working with bu firm, like, you know, what, you know, the market looks like, you know what the industry looks like, you know, kind of what the needs are. And we had a very specific vision for what we think could really benefit a number of firms and, and also benefit a number of clients. When you talk about the deal structure, it's like, okay, when you share that, do you connect with the other side where they're, they're equally excited about what the possibilities are and that's really what, what resonated the deal structure? Yeah, there's, there's, there's slight variations and there's slight nuances, but we were talking about what we to do.
They were all in.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
And you're, I think, unique in the law firm owners and the deals that I've looked at. A lot of this has been taking chips off the table for owners who are thinking about succession, thinking about pulling back.
You are younger than a lot of the guys who are looking to, to sell across the industry right now. Do you see yourself as being in a similar position to them or are you going to be more involved? I think if I, if I know correctly, you're the CEO of the MSO as well and sounds like you're going to be quite involved in the day to day moving forward.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, that's exactly right. I'm going to be heavily involved. And you know, the idea is that, you know, I think a lot of times you talk to owners and about, okay, what, what is this for? And like, does that mean I got to get out and go, you know, whatever, play golf or shuffleboard or it's like, no, you can, you can.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Dude, does someone actually play shuffleboard? Chat? I don't think that's a thing.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: I don't know. Pickleball, whatever. You know, I'm a big fan of pickleball, by the way. But no, but, you know, I think people were trying to figure out like, what does this mean to me? And it can mean a lot of different things. While the deal structure is very common from, from each, from them talking to you and saying, okay, here's kind of what it could look like.
Some owners have reached out and said, you know what, I want to, I want to be out in six months and you know, on an island sipping a pina colada and don't bother Me, unless you know something, you know, it's burned down. And then you got others that are like, hey, you know, I want to maybe work for another 24 months, and after that, maybe want to reevaluate or I want to. I want to work just doing what I'm doing for the foreseeable future. I just want to take some chips off the table. Others are like, you know, some mix of that. And the idea is finding out what is important to the owners. They built these amazing, incredible firms, and what is.
What do they want to get out of some structure. The structure and tailoring the deal to try and meet those needs and meet what they're trying to accomplish. And so they look a little bit different there. And they're coming in from all different, you know, from all different walks of what they want. And it's. It's pretty cool. I'm saying, like, I enjoy doing this. I've been doing it for a bunch of years. I love the whole process of it. And yeah, I'm playing a big role. And it has not slowed down for me. In fact, it's sped up now.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: I mean, you went from three months ago you were on the selling side to now you're on the buy side. Presumably, what's shifted in your perspective and what have you. What would you say, like, the biggest learnings have been from, hey, I'm thinking about selling a portion of my law firm, too. Now I'm looking at buying law firms or portions of firms. Like, what would you say now that you've seen both sides of it? Are there any aha moments for you? Are there any things you're, like, saying, man, like, this is really helpful to see now that I'm on the other side to someone who's thinking about being on the sell side.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Well, you know, I think there's this especially very early on, and I'm not downplaying it, but I think there's this big importance put on, okay, am I. Am I going to be a platform firm, meaning I'm going to be the first one that this private equity group invest in, through. Through the MSO structure. And if I do that, it's going to be a better deal and all that kind of stuff. And I don't think that's necessarily the case because we're bringing firms on board and into the MSO that, that, you know, they're not the first. We're, you know, we got it up and running and they're joining and they're getting great valuations, they're getting Great terms. They're getting great as if they were a platform firm. And I think that's kind of the way that the market's going. And. And we look at this going, gosh, there' out there, there's so much opportunity to be better and grow collectively that we're bringing on some really, really great firms that help take all this on, right? We look out and go, okay, this is not our daily debosure thing. This is not our thing. It's the thing of the firms that are joining this group, and let's build something great together. And that's resonating with a lot of people that we're talking to. Taking this on all, like, one firm by itself, trying to go tackle all the issues would be a difficult task. And I'm. And that's coming from someone that's worked with just tons of firms at the same time in different jurisdictions, different venues, different personalities, different everything.
And I'm saying, all right, it's. I think some firms are thinking, like, oh, I'm gonna be a platform firm and go do this. They don't quite know if they haven't. If you haven't run multiple firms in other jurisdictions before, you may not know what you're getting into. So tread cautiously. I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm just saying it's. It's more complex than you think.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Well, and it's also not just about, do I want to be the face of something or do I want to be, like, a follower? Like, it's not that dichotomy. It's.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: It's not.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: You have the operational chops and the leadership chops to bring other people into a fold and do the integration. And, like, that's taking on a lot. It's not just. I think there's probably a misunderstanding, as usual, of. It's like a. It's like a ego thing, or maybe more kindly, it's like a prestige thing. It's like, well, I want to be the face of. Of this. It's like, well, that also comes with a lot of responsibility. And the question that I had for you next is, as someone who you've consulted with firms, you've coached firms, you've had an advertising agency, You've. You've got partnerships all over. You've done a lot of that. Operational integration, cultural integration. I'd love to hear your thoughts on a number of areas. What I mean, overall, like, what is your philosophy on integration once you bring a firm into the fold? And then I'll Drill down more into some of the specific areas.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: Well, it goes back to like when I doing consulting with firms. I mean, I think the first thing, there's a book called the first 90 days. It's a Harvard Business Review. And it's like if you go into organization and you're, you know, and, and you're brand new and what do you do in the first 90 days? It's a great book and it talks about the stars concept and is an organization a startup turnaround, accelerated growth, realignment or sustaining success? And it talks about the concept where, you know, realignment or sustaining success is different than a startup or turnaround. And so as we sit here today, we are not going in and trying to start up firms or turn around firms. That's a different. How do you got to go in and act fast and break a bunch of stuff and you know, it's akin to hunting. You gotta go out and bring something home every single day versus a realignment or a sustained success firm, which a lot of the firms that we're buying are just real well run firms.
And the rule with those from just, you know, first do no harm. Approach them from a learning perspective. Approach them from getting to know the team, the people and the culture, understanding how, why, how they have become successful and then collaboratively work with them to apply things. I've worked at other firms. It's a different mindset. So if startup and turnarounds are hunting, you know, realignment and sustaining success is more, that's farming. You can take your time and you know, plant some crop and, and I'm not saying that, you know, we have any intent of moving slow, but there's a much more methodical, intentional, careful approach in those environments. And that's, those are the kind of firms that we're bringing on. So you know, that's how we approach.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: And where do you draw any bright lines around? Okay, we're going to either preserve or unify the brand ops technology.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Like where is preserve the brands or the, the individual? Individual firms are in markets. You know, we're buying firms that have great brands. They're, they're joining the platform and the idea is like let's, let's keep that going. But if you look the teams that support the services, organization that supports those brands that you know, run them as is, as they currently operate. And then if there's opportunities for efficiencies, which there will be, there's tons of opportunities to consolidate certain services. And whether it's how we use AI or whether it's Other things that are rapidly changing in our world, then we will collaboratively choose which of those things we consolidate. But again, these are great firms that we're. We're talking to and bringing on board. Therefore, a lot of difference going to the existing leadership, existing teams, and making sure that we preserve the things that made them who they are.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you see what level of unification around technology are you. Are you looking at? And you may say we're going to evaluate everything for a period of time and then move to a consolidated.
I've heard every approach from fully federated. We're not going to dictate anything for 18 months, hard stop. And then we'll look at a unified solution to, hey, we're just going to bring everybody onto our platform. We're going to rip the band aid off. Let's go.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Well, good luck. Good luck with that.
But you know what?
[00:14:03] Speaker A: I'm not saying that any of them are good. I'm just saying I've talked to people, Chad.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: I know, but you know what? The way I look at this is that I hope. Hope that everyone who is going down this path, everyone that is doing this, I hope every single group has, Is wildly successful.
And I mean that from the bottom of my heart because I think it helps all of us. And in what we're doing, I think it helps all of us in the long run. And so I, you know, you call over, you know, there's a bunch of, you know, people consolidating. Are you.
I mean, sort of kind. But honestly, I hope everyone kicks butt and does really well because it helps all of us. And so with that said, you know, I think there's gonna be a number of different approaches how people attack the technology front.
I think, you know, back to my, you know, if you're buying turnarounds, maybe you rip the band aid off and, and that's do what you gotta do to make them successful again. That's not the firms that we're bringing on board right now. We're bringing on really highly successful firm with great brands. And the idea is like, all right, well, we're not going to go in and change the technology or platform. This, that and the other.
There's ways to, to solve for those things that are less disruptive.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: So at this point, the approach is keep everyone running the platforms that they're on now. From a tech point of view.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and again, it goes back to, like, what do the owners want to do? If you have an owner that says, hey, look, I want to, I want to be out pina colada in six months, that's different.
You got to jump in and work with the, the second layer of leadership and make that happen or figure out a way to do it or you don't do the deal right. But if, if you have an owner that's like, hey, I want to be heavily actively involved and this is what I want. My, you know, I'm good and okay, more deference given. And it's like, okay, how can we support the things that are important to you, like, what are your big rocks? And how can we provide assistance with that? And the answer may be, I got it and, or it may be, hey, I want, I want a lot of assistance. Now I do know that again, having worked with just hundreds of firms over the years, there's easy, data driven ways to say, here's where your firm could improve and here are the things that you go and do and do it.
A lot of the member firms that are coming on board are like, oh yeah, I can't wait to apply those things to my firm. And I can't wait for you to, you know, assess kind of where we should lean into. And I like that. And that's, that's not by accident. I mean, the idea is if we're going to all work on the same together, be partners in this together, we gotta, you know what, ego is the enemy, right? And let's just make a, you know, great services organization. Let's collectively work to get there and let's let the right idea win over who is right and all that kind of stuff. I think you're just going to have to make some decisions along the way.
And it's not like a one size fits all. Okay, we're going to come in and you know, here's the playbook. There's definitely a playbook, but how you run those plays and apply that playbook varies from firm to firm.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: And I mean, you've been in the game of everything from turning law firms around to sustaining success. You've done the accelerated growth, you've started a firm as well. Where do you see, I mean, you're coming in to make a return via the mso, via the, the larger service Org. What's the pri?
And I think you're, you, you're taking a pretty nuanced approach to each firm is different, there's going to be different paths there. But you also have relative strengths. As Chad Dudley, as the group of investors, where do you see the primary opportunities to increase the value of the firms that you're bringing on the platform, is it in increasing? Yes, I'll stop.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: No, I mean, I think that I've always believed and still do very strongly that whatever business you're in, can you obsess over what you're delivering to the client? Like, just start there. How do we make this representation, this process, this experience better for our clients collectively? And when we look at that, that translates into how can we deliver better client service during the life of the representation and post representation? And then how do we get continued better results for the clients on a consistent basis? Right. And if we take care of the client, then that, that goes a long way to making everything else work out. And once we lose sight of that, once that it becomes anything other than that, then we've. We've lost our way, not just as attorneys, but in whatever business you're in. And so we start there. And then when we look at when. How do you go about that systematically? Yeah, there. There's definite processes for delivering better client service and the frequency with which we speak to our clients and how we keep them informed and then how we answer their questions. How do we make them, you know, feel like, hey, you are a priority? Because they are. We wouldn't be able to do any of this without our clients. But then in addition, that. How do we like each client, you know, just knowing exactly what they're going through and not just being another file, not no longer on your desk, but a file in your computer, but what is their story? And so all the things that we do and we apply is like going, okay, each case is unique and learn the uniqueness and represent your client accordingly. And that's, you know, are there very nuanced systems and processes and ways to go? Yes, a hundred percent. And I can get into that in great detail. And I have on a lot of podcasts, at the core of it is, okay, how do we deliver better client service? How do we deliver better representation, which results in better results on average for our clients?
[00:19:51] Speaker A: And I think. And the kind of the layer that sits on top of that, to manage that at scale, you have, I would imagine, developed a lot of that over time as you've applied coaching and management to other firms. Like, do you feel like you've been able to port that over directly from what you've done into this new initiative?
[00:20:12] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I think that's where. And that's. I talk to people that may go into consulting or go into working with other firms.
I think it's one of the most challenging things right so you become an attorney and you work in your career, and you're like, okay, if I just keep my own little world organized and working well, great. And then you have some success, and maybe then you're supervising another attorney, and then you, okay, I just got to keep this guy. And then it grows. And that's five attorneys and more attorneys and more people. And consulting's basically say, hey, take all these things that you know how to do and how you built these processes and procedures and now try and go implement them in a, you know, another location with a bunch of strangers with a whole new team, resources, culture. And, and so it really forces you to stress test whatever methodologies you use to get results.
And then you repeat that dozens, hundreds of times. And at the end of the day, if you, if you've been highly intentional about it, you're like, okay, and you probably. I think we all do this in a career. You look back at how you approach things a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, oh, my gosh, I've learned so much, and I feel that way. And, and so, you know, when I
[00:21:23] Speaker A: look at that, I don't feel like I've learned a lot, Chad. I feel like I've failed a lot. And that I'm like, wow, past me was really bad. I'm maybe a. I'm just not going to be as dumb this year.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah, right. And what are the saying is what we learn from our mistakes are mentors, and mentors are. That's better. Right. So if you can learn a mentor, being a, like a coach, a friend, someone that's. That can add some value to that, whatever you're trying to accomplish, that's a lot better than learning from mistakes. And so I try to bring that to the firms I work with. But, you know, you look at that and go, gosh, if you have not done that at scale, if you not really work through all those processes and procedures and know how to apply stuff in different environments, then, yeah, it's. It's gonna be tough.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And clearly you're. You're betting on yourself on this, and I think that's a good bet. As someone who's sat in the industry for a while and seen the sophistication of operators across the industry, Question for you more on a personal level, what's the biggest growth area for you as you enter into this new phase? Like, you have coached so many firms, you've run your own firm.
What's the new edge? What's the thing that you're like, oh, this is what I need to learn and nail down as we move into
[00:22:37] Speaker B: the next phase, as we go into this next phase. I'm excited about the dynamics of.
When I've worked with firms from a consulting standpoint, it is awesome and I love it. I have great friendships, relationships, hung out, got on vacations with some of my consulting clients and former consulting clients, and stay in touch and you develop this great, great bond. What I'm looking forward towards is, is as we be, you know, partnerships is even sort of a deeper, sort of like we're tied at the hip, you know, financially, so to speak, and looking at going, gosh, you know, how do, how do you, you know, slow down and just get to understand the culture and the dynamics and, and the, the team that you're now building together. And really.
And I think, you know, it's slowing down to move fast. And what I mean by that is going like, okay, I just take a pause and just get to know the people that you're shoulder to shoulder with. And, and, you know, when I was, I played college tennis and tennis is a very individual sport. And when I got to college, you're now part of the team and you're, you know, you guys winning or losing is dependent on every single person showing up and fighting to bitter end. And, and, you know, it's like you get to know those guys and you get confidence in who you're, you know, going and play matches with and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I look at that very similar way. Like, you know, I'm looking forward to just getting to know these new partners and new friends and, and it's going completely. It's going to be different in the sense of like, joining these bond. These bonds, you know, consulting all my consulting gigs at some point, the end, right? And you kind of go on and you know, but. But this is a. I mean, in
[00:24:31] Speaker A: something level, it's like you went from being like the class tutor to now it's a giant group project.
There's like, pros and cons to each, right? Where it's like, okay, and you, I correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have a lot more hard power now than you did before. Like, as a leader of like a real group where there's shared equity across the whole thing versus before. You're coaching, you're consulting, you're like, hey, I'm rooting for you.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Maybe I have something. But now it's like, no, like, this is us. Like, we are all in this together and like, I feel like that's got to be a pretty different dynamic, like one that's navigable, but just, it's just different than it was before.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I've always operated very, in a very, a very team oriented mindset and, and that's part of the vetting process. When we're looking at firms, we're going, okay, well who, you know, is get to know the persons that we're, we're talking to. We're not just sitting out, you know, offers blindly.
We're really spending a lot of time going, okay, is this firm, is this, are these owners a good fit for what we're trying to accomplish? And they could be a great, fantastic, amazingly run firm. And if we don't connect on that, it's just probably not a good fit. And so we're really taking our time in that regard. I'm looking forward to just like, like I said, getting to know these new partners, new team members alongside with me to revolutionize our practice. Right. It's a whole new world and we got some, some great resources to, to handle it.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Well, I think what's, what's interesting to me as someone who's looking on a little bit is you said early on you didn't feel like it was zero sum. And in a lot of ways like that's really true. There's a lot of law firms, there's a lot of firm owners, there's practices, but ultimately the platform firms, you, the other ones who are out there, who are leading the charge, like so much of that and who's going to be a fit is driven by culture, driven by different buy box preferences, et cetera. And so there isn't, there's not a one size, it's not that you're going to take, you know, the top 10 firms and then everyone's left with nothing. It's that you're going to find the firms that want to work with Chad Dudley. And then over here you've got the Fred Lit Winiak firms. And that's a different type of style and culture. And like you're kind of hiring in or you're choosing the team that works with you. And even this past week I introduced two guys who are both buying law firms. Now they're in different verticals, but like they just have different cultures, different sets of things they're looking for in firms. And so I think, you know, it's not that there's not going to be collisions and competition. Right. Like that. Clearly there is and there are objectively better and worse firms to buy.
So I'm not going to pretend like everything's, you know, is always perfect. But the reality is, I think there is a lot of room for, as we see these, these larger entities emerging, that they're going to have the flavor and the culture that the, the leaders have cultivated and that. That's cool. Like, you're getting these larger iterations of chat of what you built with Dudley DeBoer over the years.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: And yeah, I mean, we've had.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: The world's a better place for it.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. I mean, we had, you know, the, you know, I've taught at conferences and put on events and we've had, you know, our competitors show up and, or send their top people there. And I'm like, come on. I mean, you know, like, I'll tell you, we're an open book. We'll share everything we do. Because again, I think it, you know, if we all do that, it raises the bar again for the results for our clients and we're all better off. If that's, if that's the case. And I look at this in a very similar way, going, gosh, you know, there is a chance to really raise the bar across the board. I'm not just talking about what we're doing, but I mean, if you get really well run firms that are now taking their best practices and then applying it at scale, I think the clients will ultimately be better off. I think if we're all successful in how we go about it, the industry will be better off.
And so we'll continue to be the way that we are, open book, continue to share, even in this dynamic, changing environment.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: Something that I, to put a sharp edge on. It is that I tell a lot of people that I talk to, look, business isn't always complicated, but it's hard. And I'll tell you what I'm doing, but you're gonna have to do it. And that's, it's like, I'm not downplaying that it takes smart people to create the frameworks and all of that, but, like, at the end of the day, you gotta put it into practice. And I think there's a bit of the competitor in me says, like, yeah, I'll tell you what we're doing, but you're gonna still have to come at me. I'm pretty confident that I can run faster than you can.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: I know. I think Michael Phelps, you know, shared his workout and his diet and with a bunch of other, you know, all his competition, they're all looking at going, oh, no, no, that's too much. It's too much. And like, and so I think in the same way, I mean, you know, you look at what, you know, it's tough actually doing it. And, and again, look, if people do it and they get better results for their clients and they're in our markets or whatever, that's look great. Let's, it's better for. That's what we started this whole firm for. That's what we got in. And that's what I got in this, my partners and I got into this for is like, we like helping people. We like helping people that may not be able to help themselves or may not. You know, I'm the first attorney in my family. Same thing with my two partners. They going, gosh, these, you know, we're helping people that, that may not know where to go when something bad happens. And if it's, if that's us, if it's someone else, I just hope they get, get some help.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, good note to end on Chad. Any calls to action, anything that you would want a listener take away from this or think about or reach out to you about.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Appreciate that. Two things. One, I wrote a book called Seven Disciplines of Successful Law Firms. Trial Guides has picked it up and it's about to go to print any week now. So go get copies on that. It's the seven top things that I recommend that I've seen great firms do on a consistent basis. And so I go into detail about what those things are. And then in addition to that, if you want to talk about what we're doing with our MSO, just reach out to me. C dudleyudleydevosier.com Happy to set up a time to talk and share what we're doing.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Fantastic. And I look forward to your second book, seven Things that the Worst Law Firms have All Done. That one will be even more entertaining, albeit less useful. Chad, thank you so much for sharing your time and it's great to have you back on the podcast and I look forward to hearing about how things develop for you. Really appreciate it.
[00:30:55] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
