Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Relay, the legal show for personal injury law firm owners presented by Luxamica, the largest managed referral network for plaintiff firms. I'm your host, Gabriel Steeritz. Joining me today is Dave Thomas, who runs growth and business development for Law Tigers. Dave spent the last several years expanding Law Tigers into new markets around the country. And before illegal, he spent 17 years in healthcare. On the business development side, he also hosts his own show, Asphalt Advocate. So he knows exactly what I'm doing here and what he's going to do to make my job easy today. And this has been on my mind for quite a while. Law firm injury brands are one of the hottest topics right now. We talk a lot about private equity MSOs, mergers and acquisitions, cost of client acquisition. And there's something really interesting here. 25 years ago, a lawyer in Phoenix built a brand that is everything that people are talking about today. It's equity, it's ownership, it is an audience that cares about what he's talking about. And in some ways he's flying under the radar still, you wouldn't know he's in many, many markets today, but in a lot of ways, Warren built something before anyone was even thinking about brands. So I'm really excited to have Dave on the show today to talk about it. Dave, welcome to the relay.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Hey Greg, Roll so excited and thanks for the warm intro. Yeah, man, it's, it's been exciting, you know. LOL. Tigers, we're, we're actually celebrating our 25th year anniversary this year.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Congratulations. That's awesome. And I know that as I was doing research for the show, there are actually a lot of brands that came out in the 90s that were similar to this and they've all, most of them, if not all, have long since gone by the wayside. So in some ways, not only are you is this an innovator, but it's also a survivor. How much do you know about that history? I'd love a little bit of background on why the spate of brands in the 90s and why law Tigers you think is the one that survived to today.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's a couple of reasons. Great questions. First of all, you know, so Warren Levenbaum, I think it's good to know for the audience that he did practice 30 years prior as a defense attorney and some other legal practice and he actually founded Law Tigers at the age 56. You know what's, what's interesting about that, Gabriel, is most people are looking to wind things down and retire, but he was just ramping up he had a phenomenal kind of aha moment. So I think it's helpful to share that. Warren is also an avid writer. So he would often jump on his Harley Davidson and tour and take rides and run into fellow riders and, and he had an aha moment that he discovered a built in audience. Right. Commonality, shared interest, almost like a fraternity if you will, within the riding community. And where I'm going with this Gabriel, is that, you know, what he quickly understood is that he has a carved out niche that needed, you know, some, some representation. Someone who would devote their life and their professional career towards it. And so he quickly shifted, you know, his firm into a PI firm. Beta tested on his firm and some of his buddies, firms and you know, kind of fast forwarding to the day, yes, we are the largest motorcycle marketing lawyer group in the nation. But to answer your question more specifically, I really think that, you know, it is protected by niche. However, the way that we go about our business brand is everything.
We're so, we're so aware of brand awareness, brand recognition and obviously to the day it's kind of led to brand dominance in our space. But you know, the way we go about handling our business in the community is, is really next to none. And what I mean by that, our grassroots component, we're really glued to the community and we're the, the face for riders in many respect. We watch over our own, they know that. So it's a built in trust, inherited, you know, long term relationships. And I think anytime you take an approach from being less transactional to more relational, it really affords you to have a sustainability in anything that you do. And so that's why we're still standing the day, thriving and doing quite well.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, I, so I want to push in on that because again brand building is, is really a hot topic right now. The equity of brands, the power of brands, especially as the market's getting more competitive. Why did Law Tiger survive when so many other ones fel the wayside? And I mean I don't know if you've been, I certainly have not been in the industry long enough to point to those, those brands in the 90s and what they meant. But I'm real curious if you have a hypothesis for like how do you survive for a long time as a brand? And I always like to look at the negative. Why do other brands die 25 years long you've survived, why do the other ones not?
[00:04:40] Speaker B: No, I, I can't answer that question about the, the, the other businesses, but I Will tell you, probably going back to my original answer of that. He discovered a powerful and incredible niche within the legal industry. I kind of give some examples from, you know, you probably heard me say this with Starbucks and In N Out Burger and Chick Fil A. I mean, why are they the top fast food chains in, in the world and why are they beating out, you know, such fashion companies like McDonald's and Burger King that's been here well, well beyond years before they even arrived. And I go back to that powerful niche. Anytime you can, you know, really capitalize on the area of interest where you can have a targeted audience that, that you can win over their trust and build exceptional long term relationships, then it's something that once again is sustainable, but it's also recognizable for years to come. You can say that that was his strategy. I think he lucked up on, on a powerful niche practice. And that's really what kind of separates us from anyone that's, that's doing this around the country. We have kind of like that 25 year head start, if you will. And we just keep growing and getting better at.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: And one of the brands that's grown very quickly over the past few years. And a lot of our listeners will know this is Top Dog. And one of the questions that I've been posing to the industry at large is why are there not more Top Dogs? And when I was prepping for this, I was like, there kind of is here with Law Tigers. It's a brand. It exists for the purposes, purpose of connecting to an audience to generate cases. This is my take. You can disagree with it and really stands on its own, right. Like it's not a law firm per se, but it's a brand that connects to an audience that is generating claims. That's really what Top Dog is. That's a referral business. This is a market. But fundamentally, in terms of what it represents to an audience, very similar. So I want to get into the degree of what actually is Law Tiger. What do you own? What is the equity? What is the, the business itself.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So the business model is very similar to a franchise model. We license our program to personal injury firms across the country. We view them as exclusive members of Law Tigers. And the way that works is, Gabriel, we're a marketing agency. They own rights to Law Tigers, such as if you and I got together and start purchasing franchises around the country, you know, so what's built out in that is they, they adopt our marketing teams which consist of digital marketing, grassroots and traditional advertisement. Those are the three buckets we live in and how we actually go to market, our marketing strategy and, and basically how we're able to generate the motorcycle cases to the firms as well. We have a unique position in the space because on the other side of the business, the commercial side, we live, breathe and eat this stuff. I mean, literally, we're headed out to Sturgis next month as one of the top marketers and partners at one of the world's largest events when it involving motorcycle riders in the world. And so. But we also do that at local levels in all the states that we occupy.
Something came up too, when you asked, you know, the separation. How are you guys still alive when some other folks fell to the wayside, their, their value and having iconic brand. Right. And, and so when Warren developed Law Tigers in Top was it Top Dog Law? Very similar. So iconic branding, it creates an emotional connection with your audience and it allows them to rally around something other than a law firm's name or, or maybe a certain individual. It's like Nike. Right. A lot of people wear Nike because Nike is like the coolest brand when it comes to shoes, but there's other shoes and other brands that, that work just as well when it comes to running or playing sports. So I think we got an early, you know, a head start on that as well. And really bringing forth an iconic brand that meets people exactly where they're at. They're able to, to, to, you know, once again kind of fall in love with the brand and not you. Right. Because we, we know there's so many unconscious biases in on individuals and of course, businesses. But when you, you kind of separate that and you, you bring a brand to life. Now, now, now they're really, you know, relating to, you know, what does Law Tiger stand for? What does that Tiger stand for? Loyalty. Watch over our own. We're here to pick you up when you fall down and get you back on your feet. So, so all that stuff, so I'm glad you allowed me to share that because that, I think that's so important when you look at a brand like ours really thriving 25 years later.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: Something that you're tapping into, and I'll ask you more about this in a second, is Law Tigers is very positive and something that is more sophisticated or just better than a lot of legal brands where it's a last name and it's a face on a billboard. Law Tigers isn't a name and it isn't someone's face.
To the brand's credit, it has really connected to a specific demographic and audience on their own terms. That happens to be one that's extremely valuable to persons we love from owners, motorcycle riders. But even in that, it's not that you went and launched a. A brand that's someone's name and then hoped that name got into the motorcycle riding community.
It's a consumer brand, it's not a name brand. Right. And I think that's like a really interesting piece. And you and I have talked enough for me to understand that the way that you have structured the brand itself is not just that you're running TV spots and you're aiming at a demographic, but you're really going in and meeting people where they are in a way that even if someone else wanted to be in the space would be difficult to replicate, in part because it takes time to build trust with a really intense sub community like motorcycle riders. And two, you're really meeting where they are. Like you mentioned, Sturgis, that has nothing to do with personal injury law. You're actually meeting the motorcycle riders where they are at an event that they care about. So I think that's, that's a real takeaway for anyone who wants to do good brand building is not to try to build the brand on your terms, but build it on the terms of the people that you're trying to connect with. And like you said, Warren's a writer. Like that in and of itself is a great starting point for someone to build. And, and I think. And Dave, I'll be curious if you can name other names, but there are some really powerful brands in the space right now that really connect into those demographics, like Amanda Demanda, who's connecting to a very specific community inside of the Florida demographic, and others like that who are tapping into demos that, you know, accept you on their terms rather than you trying to get them to accept you on. On yours. So one of the things that I'm curious to hear from you, because I rode for a while, I loved it, but I did make a promise that I wasn't going to ride after I got married because I was going to kill myself. And I didn't want to leave my wife a widow. But I used to ride all through New York City at a Vespa. Then I had triumph. Like, I love motorcycle riding.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: And about you. That's pretty.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, man. I and rode like a bat out of hell, too. I am lucky to be alive today.
So I love motorcycle riding. I love that this is the thing that you guys are doing. Tell me what it's like if I'm a writer and I'm experiencing law tigers because I understand what it's like to see a big billboard driving down the road is a generic auto driver and kind of there's just like a name recognition piece. But if I'm a writer, like, what is my experience of law tigers? Because I'm really curious to look at it through that lens because I think that's a large part of the staying power of, of the brand is what it means to motorcycle riders. Like, I show up at a show, what is that experience?
[00:11:52] Speaker B: I'll kind of dive deep and then work my way out of it. So, so for riders, you know, they're looking at their own, right? And so that's where the connection lies. It's. It's a sacred brotherhood or even sisterhood, because there's all type of riders. But when they look at the law tkers brand, it's also someone that's relatable, that's dependable, but also someone that they inherently they trust. Right? Because we know that people do business with people they like and trust, and that's kind of built in to what we do. They see us on the front lines, they see us at the park stores, tow companies, dealerships. They see it all. The rallies locally, across the country, the even larger national rallies, and when they go down the bike, and unfortunately, you've ridden, you know, it's not the question of if, but when. So if you land on your bike, you, you know, you. You're going to want to align yourself to a person that not just understands you from an injured, you know, victim or injured rider, but also from a motorcycle rider. Right? Because there's so much importance around getting their bike fixed, like them getting back on their bikes. And I also feel that, you know, just like in the general public, you know, if I'm injured, if I'm in an accident, you know, and if I want to go to a medical provider, I want to go to a specialist. I want to go to someone who, who actually works on, you know, what my needs are. And so I think that's once again inherited in what we do. It's a world of trust between the writing community and law tigers. And we take pride in that. We really take pride in being there for them and being that resource. That's what we like to identify ourselves. It's. It's a lifestyle brand. And when you look at it, you know, even going to market, you know, legal vendors, legal marketing companies, they look at selling products. We don't look at ourselves as selling A product. We really look at ourselves as being a true strategic growth partners for our personal injury firms. And you know, our program, not sure if, you know it's a 30 year membership protected up to 30 years, it renews on nine terms. Not many folks are going to sign up with you and, and join your membership or your network for 30 years if they don't believe in what.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Candidly, Dave, that is preposterous. That's the most outrageous contract I've ever heard of. That's like, I mean, I think like only Disney timeshares are longer term agreements than what you're talking about. My mortgage isn't even 30 years. Yeah, I mean I say that with all due respect, sales guy to sales guy, like yeah, that's a very, very long time.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Well, when you look at things, when you talk about building a brand, it takes a lot of money, a lot of blood, sweat and tears that goes into it. And just say if you're one of our members and you've grown this thing over five or seven years, would you like for me to take it away from you? Right. So there are firms that's been with us 10, 15 years and they're just halfway through it. They're, they're extended in another 10 years because they want their junior associates, their sons and daughters. They have legacies within the firms to live on. The Law Tigers brand, you know, it's, we really do it as a companion brand amongst all the firms that we partner with. It takes pressure off of their existing brand and it's just a great way to grow the business and gain additional market share. So really the way I like to present it, it's not like you're trapped in it for 30 years. It's really protected up to 30 years because it does renew. We have to perform or you don't, you won't renew with us as well.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: I mean look, having longtime people and that protection does make, it is, is solid. And I say that genuinely as, as I'm, I'm by the, the duration of the contracts. And on the other side, if I understand that there's a bit of a ramp period and I think that's something worth diving into because there are a lot of firms and firm owners that are looking at expansion and a lot of people will go and they'll go to lead gen. They'll do generic branded, you know, generic stuff. They'll start to launch, you know, LSAs or PBC. And those are things that, I mean some of them have some brand associated with them. Certainly Legion doesn't. You're buying a commoditized lead, you're buying a signed retainer or whatever or just like a live call transfer for $1800 a piece and there's falloff on it. I'm curious to see like, I'm sure you understand the economics pretty deeply. Like what is a ramp period?
At what point are you anticipating a break even point and ultimately like why are the economics favorable for this? Give me a rundown of, of what the numbers are to launch this effectively a site. Like you said, it's a, it's a companion brand.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: You know, these are phenomenal questions. I wish people would ask them more often. So let's talk about this ramp up period. Anytime you start anything from ground level, there's definitely going to be a ramp up period. No different than you starting your company three, four, five years ago, wherever the however long it's been. We know that when you get to your, you know, year three, that's kind of when you're, you're really striking a little bit in the green area. But that, you know, our program is a little different, right? There is a ramp up period, but you're dealing with motorcycle cases. So, so are there years where we just launched and you got that, that case that had everything going for itself and it's the seven figure cases that roll in that does happen, but not all the time. But I will tell you this though, Gabriel. Our program is a ROI program. So much different than most of what take place in the legal industry. Now let's just face it, most attorneys are very transactional. They track everything with acquisition costs. Most lead gen companies operate that way. We're different if you strip us down to the bare minimum. At the core, that's what we are. But I think that's the phenomenal disguise of what we bring to our audience is that you know what, we're not a lead gen company, but at the core we are. We're generating high value motorcycle cases.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Talk me through. Like what is the anticipated break even point on you're, you're making this investment, right?
[00:17:15] Speaker B: That's the only reason I'm, I'm able to even sell these things to your point, 30 year membership. Like Dave, you must be an incredible salesperson. Well, I'm okay, but I'm not that great. What's really promising is that year one, what we do is we, before I even enter conversations with a potential Law Tigers member, we develop these performers across the country. Everything is tied to a number of injuries and fatalities. Let's for example, Orlando. I know that there's 2,700 injuries and fatalities yearly. Right. Annually there. So we'll go in and take a modest percent of that. Let's just say maybe 7 to 8, 8%. Year one, that's roughly going to bring us somewhere around 90 cases. Somewhere around there, 90 to 95 cases.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: When you say 2700, that's, that's like the Orlando metro area. Is that motorcycle or is that just okay, that's like a dma, you know,
[00:18:04] Speaker B: it's an exclusive market. There's five markets in Florida. But I'm just using Orlando as a clear example because we know there's get riding there and it's a bunch of injuries and fatalities. So year one you would bring in about 8% of that number of 2700. That scales annually on a percentage or two. Now if you look at your investment, say if your investment is anywhere, you know, 800,000, 900,000 all in for all your marketing, all the three different mediums, the membership fee you pay us. But in year one on paper you're already at a 2.5x. Right? But you have to settle your case. So I always share this with folks and we have some of the best firms in the country that's part of our network.
Year one you got to have money to, to obviously advertise and bring in your cases and settle them. But after year two now you're, you're benefiting from the monies that you were able to, to capture through your settlement fees and reinvest in the program. That's why we say it's like a two to three year run when you're really getting out into your three to four to five x on the program. Now that's kind of your worst case scenario according to what we mapped out through our Performa. But we don't really plan on worst case scenarios. We, we know that if we're after this for three years and now we've moved from year one to 90 cases to 115 cases to now in year three, north of 130 cases. Within those 130 cases, we know there are going to be a handful of good ones. Right. And that's what keep our members actually renewing with us. And it's also really good to share with the audience as well that you can opt out on our program at the completion of 12 months for the first three years. So that put us in the position to perform. Right. I'm not sure how that works with a lot of other companies out there. But yeah, so we have the pressure to perform year one, two and three. I was thinking just leave the program. So. So after three years, then we ask them to renew for additional three years. So to answer your question, I think the year one, you're in the hole a little bit there, right, because you gotta, you gotta sell your fees. But after that, then, you know, it's like really turning on the spigot, so to speak, and it's the gift that keeps on giving. And we scale at a pretty really aggressive rate as we approach year three and in the years to come.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, anyone, Dave, who's, who's spent the time and effort to build a brand or launch in a new market without doing lead gen, understands that you're not even really seeing much ROI at all on marketing dollars for, let's say, three to nine months with an average of six where you're starting to see cases coming in. So, I mean, I would be deeply concerned about your, you know, your, your pitch if you're telling me anything less than that. I think what I'm trying to get into here is what that ramp period looks like, because again, a lot of our listeners, maybe they're going to go with Law Tigers, maybe they do something else. But the best thing we can do is educate them. Like, what does it take to ramp a brand? Because some of the listeners may not know this, especially if they're new to Law Tigers, but you're not active in every single DMA the day that you sign a contract with someone. So effectively someone's hiring you to come in and launch a brand with them. There is obviously latent national brand recognition across Law Tigers. And so there's a bit of a lift, but you're not actively advertising in, let's say, Orlando before you sign a contract. And so it's not only. So you're not just saying, hey, like, we have a national Law Tigers brand, we have boots on the ground across every single city in the country. You're actually going and saying, hey, we have a brand playbook. We have legacy brand recognition, over 25 years of riders, and we're showing up at national events. And then that gets. There's a diaspora effect back into local community. But at its core, like, you ramp the brand in and so there is some arbitrage there where you're like, yeah, we, we're taking a brand, we're ramping it in. There's a, you know, that should be a faster ramp period because of the things that I mentioned, but there still is a Ramp to that. And to any listener who's out there thinking, either do I go buy a brand like Law Tigers and ask them to ramp with me? Well, there's reasons to do that, the ones that I just outlined. Or what's it going to take me to rent my own brand? Well, one, it's going to probably take you longer because you don't have 25 years of brand building behind you, kind of engagement in a national brand but niche community at the same time.
And so you should be looking at that both as like, yeah, there's ROI on both sides. And from my perspective, like, if I'm looking at doing a deal with Law Tigers, I'm thinking, well, how much does the ramp worth? Do I want to do this versus do a lead gen or do I go do my own thing? There's really three opportunities here. But what's super interesting to me is there really is one Law Tigers. And I mean, I, I could just be ignorant of this, but I've been to, as you know, Dave, a boatload of conferences and I've seen you there. And I think there's like one kind of first principles piece that I'm, as we're talking, I'm thinking about is there's really just one really niche community that you could own from a brand perspective, and that is motorcycle riders. Like, there's, I mean, you tell me, man, Like, I don't think that there's like Toyota Corolla drivers clubs where everyone's getting together and being like, I own a cheap car. You want to get together and like fly across the country and they'll ride on the weekend.
[00:22:55] Speaker B: Like, you're right, you're right. And I try to be modest, but we do have an incredibly powerful niche. And, and thanks for describing it that way because we do get the national lift. You know, we market all over the country. So when we arrive into those markets where, you know, you have some of the largest names and I won't throw them out there, but there's some large firms, rainmaker firms that, that, you know, they're dominating those markets. And when we enter just within our nice operations, we're able to compete against some of the big dogs, right? And really, once it goes back to the niche we always like to discuss.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: So let me ask you a hard question then, Dave. Let me ask you a hard question. Tell me if you answer it, if you will.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: And our listeners, like, when you answer the controversial stuff, you know, more directly, it's, what is the market that was the most dominated by A brand that you went into and carved out where you stole market share from somebody else. Like what was the hardest fought battle that you took market share from someone?
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Well, we do that in a lot of markets. I would say our home market, Phoenix is a good one.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: It's a great example. Yeah, I mean that is, listen, there I was talking to somebody who called them knife fight DMAs and Phoenix is maybe number one or two in the country outside of Orlando.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Very competitive, very competitive. And you know, year over year we're bringing in north of, you know, 570, close to 600 motorcycle cases. And, and that, that's brand dominance, that's brand recognition and awareness.
It's the long game. And I'll just be honest with you, you know, when we go to state by state, I've been doing this almost nine years now. I know our avatar client. In fact, I've either spoken with them, I've sent them materials, they definitely are about all tigers, but this is small percentage that actually that's aligned a lot of tigers that can even, you know, really truly be a strategic partner of ours. And part of that is really kind of weeded out by, you know, financial. Right. Acumen, you know, if you can afford the program when it comes to marketing. So I would say less than 8% of firms across the country by state can afford to market at the level that we market for our members. So when you look at our membership folks, they don't need us. So it's interesting from a sales perspective of the department that I run, the team that I run is that if, if you look at law attackers members from top to bottom, bottom to top, none of those firms actually need law attackers. They're in a position, they're doing quite well on their own. They just see an open opportunity in a targeted niche operation that they want to take and gain additional market share. You can call it the rich getting richer if you want. But you know, it's, we come in, we don't disturb your existing brand. This just does, we do the blocking and tackling and like I said in the target niche operation with motorcycle cases and we, we bring in that, that market share that's really going to help elevate your overall bottom line.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Something I heard Alex Shannara say a couple years ago is, and you know, he's like the most dominant brand in parts of Alabama that you could possibly imagine is that no matter how much he advertises, you'll Never get more than 65 market share because there's just a contingent of People who just aren't going to pick Alex Shannara when they're in some kind of an accident. And there's just fundamental limits to how much market share you can get. So I do agree.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: I heard that percentage is much less. But you're exactly right, majority of it.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Well, I mean, look, that was Alex saying about himself. So I mean everyone's, everyone's, everyone's going to say it's a higher number. Like I would do the same thing.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: But you're. You know what, you're exactly right. And that's interesting. That's this good conversation. All the stuff you're talking about on your show is so outstanding because marketers really don't think this way. You know, they, they look at marketing as more so an expense rather than an investment. And you play the loan game. The loan game really, you get to a point where there's a threshold. I talked to Robert Rusein about this in Florida. You know, he was, you know, looking at the Law Tigers brand. We didn't come together. He's doing his own thing in motorcycle space. Love the guy and I wish him well. But he said something that was, that was very similar to Alex and R. He said, hey, the reason I'm talking to you is, man, I've been marketing here 30 years and we spend this much in marketing. He's just throwing out these numbers and he says, but I'm at the ceiling here, man. It's like I'm spending money to kind of protect my territory at this point and I'm not growing, so I need to bring in an additional brand. So that's where the value is. I mean, if you're a smart marketer, if you're really a high growth law firm and you're looking to continue to scale and grow, if you can get outside of, and let's just be clear, sometimes we get, get in our own way because we're prideful, man, this is my brand. Why should I invest in this Windows brand? But my whole deal is like, man, if you can see the opportunity to scale and grow and, and you're going to, you know, make additional money, you know, bringing into your firm, why wouldn't you do it under a different brand? You know, and so that's, that's, that's really our value proposition.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: And I think Rubenstein's a good counter example, which is, look, the reality is you're going to hit market dominance at some point and then regardless of whether you go with an external vendor like a Law Tigers, you start buying leads to expand, which I've talked to plenty of lawyers. You're like, I know that it basically I'm cannibalizing my own brand and I'm now buying leads in my own market or whatever. You know what Rubenstein did, eventually you, you get to that point where, where you have to acknowledge that you have diminishing marginal returns on your ad spend inside of a DMA where you are essentially top of market, or at least you have enough market saturation that you're just not going to get more out of it. And so that's a, that's a conversation that you should have with yourself, with your marketing team to understand if you're there. And then from that point it's, well, either you go and you do a second brand or you have to expand into a new market. But either one of those, there is a brand building period that is required in order to do that. And look, I'm bullish on brands. I will tell anyone I think that brands are the way to go.
Candidly, I'd be a little bit wary of doing a Law Tigers deal only on that I wouldn't own that brand myself. And look, the 30 year protection. And maybe you guys are having these conversations around like a lot of law firms are getting to a place where they're looking at consolidation, looking at M and A. They're looking at what, what's on their balance sheet. And a big part of what's on your balance sheet right now is your brand. And I've talked to law firms who are selling and buying and they're paying for brands and so not again, this isn't to like attack Law Tigers. It's just an interesting part of the conversation. It's like, well, okay, let's say I'm a successful law firm owner. I've brought Law Tigers in. Can I sell my Law Tiger contract with the rest of my law firm
[00:29:13] Speaker B: to you can, you can. There's there, there's equity play in that and it has been done already.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: No way. So somebody sold their Law Tiger to another. Was that part of a whole law firm buyout or was that just a law from A to B?
[00:29:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Internally to junior associates. Guy retiring. There's equity in Long Tiger. So you know, it grows and it's value, it adds value to your existing firm as well. And you know, it's interesting now with the MSOs that's coming in place, ABS operations, you know, obviously we were just hanging out in big Scott and Chad Dudley stood in front of us and said, you know, what everybody. Law firm is for sale across the country. And so, you know, when you look at that, when you join an mso, is it just your brand now? Right? This is all we've been saying for the last 25 years. So any hesitancy in joining Law Tigers is. Is really about, you know, hey, am I tied to my brand?
Because what happens is you have some firms that, that will say, like Gabriel, and I think you would be one of those guys, and they'll fence, but you'd be like, man, I'm gonna go try to do this myself. And then, you know, that makes up about 50% of our members. They circle back, right? And they say, you know what, man, you guys do this. This is what you guys do. It's difficult to do this on my own. But also, you guys have such a head start and it's like a plug and play.
And so once they wrap their hands and heads around that, then it just makes sense for it. But yo.
[00:30:32] Speaker A: Well, here's the, here's the reality, Dave, is like, I might want to do it myself, but Law Tigers is a challenging counterfactual to that, which is to say that I should examine carefully, can I build the brand myself? Do I have the competency to build not a first brand, but a second brand? And here's the deal. I know that you guys are making money off of it, but if you have the. Have built the latent equity around this, like, it may be cheaper for me to buy it from. You know that you're making your profit margin. And still. And again, like, I think a lot of people are rushing into lead buying. And that to me is a proposition that has much less staying power, zero equity to hand off to somebody else. And so they're like, really? It's like Law Tiger should be, I think, in more conversations, if nothing else than a way to challenge the conception of like my. My best secondary thing is to just buy a bunch of leads. I feel optionality because like, it's a month to month contract. But the reality is I'm not building any equity over time. And I think that's the thing that surprises me about more law firm owners is, is actually that they're more short sighted, Dave. Not that people are building the brands, but that so much money is going into Legion. And I'm like, there's no equ there. Like, I get you might do it. You can grow your business fast, but it's a variable. You have no long term contractual protections. And if you sell, like, I don't think An MSO is going to give you a penny for your lead channels where you're just buying generic cases. And I'm sorry, they're lead gender, lead gen vendors who are my friends but like I just don't think that the equity value is there.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: Yeah, the equity value is not there. But also the, you know, you have to look at some, the quality of cases as well. We know when it comes to motorcycle cases, I mean they're all not home runs but you know, they're consistent, they're quicker resolutions. You have a built in audience, you have a targeted audience that's cheaper, less expensive to market to. I think there's another incredible space within a personal injury is trucking. Right. It's very similar to motorcycle accidents, high value cases but you still have to market to a general audience. Right. You have to catch your net abroad. We're very hyper focused and targeted. We do have that mixed marketing strategy but we're able to do it in a very strategic manner that makes sense to riders and so that we're top of mind and through that brand awareness. So yes, I think you save money in that respects from a marketing standpoint you're in. That's how we're able to grow kind of at light year speed compared to other brands because of our hyper focus. And we know our audience, we know exactly what they're looking for and we know how to speak directly to their
[00:32:59] Speaker A: needs and correct me if I'm wrong, Dave, but motorcycle riders you can market to that audience and those are people who according to laws of physics are more likely to be hurt. Like you're a lightweight vehicle, you're unprotected.
Truck accidents are the opposite. Truck drivers are the ones who are driving big heavy vehicles that will injure people in catastrophic ways. Not because the truck driver's a bad person, it's the laws of physics. And so you can't go and do like a law tigers to truck drivers drivers because they're not the ones who are being injured. And so really it's like you'd have to find another demo of people who are being injured at a higher rate which I guess now we're like. And I. That just doesn't come to mind. So really like that is a niche without. You can't replicate that driving.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: No.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: I guess you could maybe get like young drivers type vibes. I would just, I listen if it were me, I'd be going and finding like 15, 16 year old boys like let's go find another.
That's an audience where like Maybe we just go on Minecraft forums and build a sub brand there.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: And we're so far out in front of this thing, you know, as far as what we do in the communities, man, it's not even just targeting, you know, riders for today. We're targeting the new generation that's on dirt bikes and they graduate. Because I'm sure for you it was a graduation process. Right. We all jumped on dirt bikes when we were young, whether we're Bang 10 cheese or. And so, you know, I hate to
[00:34:20] Speaker A: say it, Dave, my, my starter vehicle was a mint green Vespa.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:24] Speaker A: It was the least cool bike of all time, but I did enjoy it.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And so, as you know, vehicles are getting safer. They're driving themselves honestly now. And so I truly feel that, you know, not to say that we're recession proof, but our coordination is something that's going to be around for years to come. And it's really, you know, going to be, in my opinion, the smarter pivot for firms that's looking to diversify, because that's part of it too. You have to diversify within your firm when it comes to marketing and to your audience.
[00:34:57] Speaker A: Dave, I'll ask you if you can share any of this. Look, there are bigger pe MSO deals that are happening across the country right now.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: In the past, your buyer pool was law firm owners. Technically, the whole market is really SMB. Right. Like, if you take Morgan out, the next biggest law firm's really like under a thousand people. At least it was until recently. But now you have private equity coming in. You have, you have these larger consolidated entities. And is there a world where Law Tigers is starting to work directly with them instead of with owners? You know, owner founders as, as your only buying pool?
[00:35:32] Speaker B: You know, we do receive the calls, Right. That we want to buy Law Tigers, buy out the rest of the market.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Not a. Well, yes. Yeah, not a full buyout, but just like the, the normal kind of partnership.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: Yeah, well, like mso. Yeah. You know, I've had some conversations. I don't know if I can really talk about that, but some conversations where we come in as a teammate within the MSO operations to, to bring in, you know, motorcycle marketing under the portfolio of msf. So, you know, those are things that definitely crossed our, our desks, so to speak. Yeah.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Look, I think you're sitting in a great position. Like, I, I believe in the power of brand equity, think that brands have a serious place in this new, more competitive, more national market than ever existed before. We were both there When Chad Dudley talked about, and I think the LinkedIn announcement has made public that they've bought five or six, maybe seven law firms now, top brands across the country. Yes, it is. There's an aggressive national play here and it's only going to become more consolidated. And I think the people who built brands and own the equity in brands and that is the hardest component to replicate. Like we talked about, there's a one to three year ramp period even for a brand that has existing equity to move into a new market. And these PE firms have three to five year time horizons. I just. So brands are the one thing that you really just can't spin up overnight.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: So you're a smart guy, Gabriel. That's the shift. I think that's a shortcoming for short sighted and minded individuals that's running these companies that think that they can just sell, sell, sell and looking at the bottom line and bringing in these, these clients. But I call it brand over everything. I know, it's very simple. Brand is so important and when you look at even competitors right now, the markets are becoming just more competitive by the day. Phoenix, you know, the metro area where we live, man, I tell you what, you know, everyone's filling it. There's so many firms here outside of our state. Where I'm going with this is the smart folks that are shifting to more of a brand recognition, brand led firm or organization.
I think their lifespan is going to be a little healthier and the longevity will definitely outlive some of their competitors. You kind of put yourself on an island too, in my opinion, to kind of compete against yourself. I mean it's, you know, like Starbucks, man. They have such good brand recognition and awareness as they compete against themselves. And I think that's the goal because right now so many folks, even in the legal funding world, everyone does it right. They're competing against each other. But just think if you shifted the paradigm, right, and say, you know what, I'm not going to just be a legal fund. I'm not going to be xyz. I want to be all inclusive, a true growth partner. I think that's the buzzword for the day is true out there. That's, that's the.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: That's how our members view us. They don't view us as a legal vendor, really. They don't really view us as a Legion company. We're a strategic growth, growth partner and that's how we insert ourselves in as a companion.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: Well, kudos to Warren, to Ari, to yourself for finding this, this niche. So many years ago and then sustaining it when a lot of other brands have died out and doubling down. And I think in a lot of ways put yourself in the middle of a very important conversation, not to mention a successful business. And so it's been great to talk to you, Dave. I really appreciate how you being on the show, taking my questions, doubling down in the. On the. The real hard topics of the day. But I think we've covered topics that are really useful to our listeners and food for thought. So I appreciate you being on the show and thank you so much for your time.
[00:39:08] Speaker B: Terrible. Thanks, man, for having me on the show. You're doing things the right way. Your company is thriving. You guys are growing meaningful way. But you only grow that way because you're intentional and you're doing right by your clients. I just wish you nothing but success in the future, man. And I'm sure I'll see you at the next legal conference.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Absolutely, Dave. It'll be soon that we run into each other again. Thank you.
